To cbet or not to cbet

[kurtkatt]

yeah i agree with crunch that this would be a good time to c-bet.

although some js might be in their range very few of them will feel esp comfortable standing up to a lot of pressure, same with 88-tt that also should be in there.

a good sized cbet here will probably be c/r by only hands that beat our range (which i would hope to be perceived as pretty tight both due to our position, our stack and the fact it is 3handed to flop) plus some Axss and probably KQss both of which we are dogs against anyways. * *jj, 77 ??(the other set 2s 3s or4s dont remember..) AA, Axss KQss 109ss 98ss, looks like a reasonable c/r range, point being its quite unlikely this flop has hit their hand hard

whereas a big part of their range could be c/c flop and reevaluate turn, probably folding to a second barrel quite often. futher our actual hand here has very little chance to end up the best hand at showdown, meaning if we dont take an aggro approach we will be giving away this pot most of the time.


edit. i mean its good if we are prepared to fire a second barrel

edit 2, damn i suck at posting *

[cheburashka]

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edit. i mean its good if we are prepared to fire a second barrel

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Again, just in the interest of discussion...


After a C-Bet, Hero will have ~20k behind with a pot of ~20k (one caller) or ~25k (two callers). So a second barrel of ~12k will certainly commit Hero. Do we really want to take a path that will probably take us to the felt on a pair of fives?

[kurtkatt]

oh, if both of them call, keep going will seems quite suicidal. so lets not discuss that.oops, maybe youcan get my meaning in that messed up thing trying to pose as a sentence

if one calls (and i think i prefer sb, description on BB would lead me to belive he will find a call with a marginal hand easier than sb) we will have a bit less than a PSB left so the only option is to push turn, with the spade draw out there it shouldnt look too desperate??!! i think the betsizing would look like 6500ish on flop and then 18k into 22k on turn when we shove

[kurtkatt]

and yea i think this could be a good spot to felt 55 if we agree with my reasoning above

[hamnegger]

raise more preflop build flop with big hands not 55.

check fold if you don't improve. c-betting is not profitable.

[kenny7]

OK,so I thought I'd take a shot as well.Although I express myself oh-so-bad when I try to write down my thoughts,and I basically have no clue anyway,I really like these kind of posts,and I really appreciate you posting here,reading stuff like this will definately make me better.

Here we go;
First of,what is your plan here? Are you playing the hand stricktly for set value? If so,you obv c/f to any bet. I will assume that you are not though,raising UTG.Yea,I know you would prefer to take it down pre,but that didn't happen,and I would think it is good to have a plan B.

First of all,I try to narrow down their holdings.No major reads,but we'll assume BB is wider than SB juding on his previous action. I think i"ll assign a pretty wide range here as he might have been tempted to come along for the ride after SB's call.

I doubt if either of them has a big hand,with these stacks you would think they'd both raise.SB because he doesn't want BB in,BB because he doesn't want to play 3 handed. ALso,although I don't know anything about your play so far,I would think they would both put you on a decent hand.After all,you did raise UTG.

The problem w the J is that is a card that's definately in their range.Other posters have put up ranges,so I'm not going to do that,other than say I disagree slightly,I think they are a little wider than what you guys say.

I cbet here would be natural,and I would think SB/BB expects it.Problem is that any decent cbet pretty much commits us,and I think you will get c/r ALOT here,of course what's worse is that they might even do it with hands like middle pair,and we really can't beat anything.

The other option is the check.Of course the villains might see that as weakness and bet the turn with absolutely nothing,in which case a cbet would have won it.

Having rambled on,personally I would check this.Too many times we are c/r here. I would also fold to any turnbet,I do think however,that I would bet if it is checked to me on the turn,Of course there are a few scare cards that'll make me check turn as well,but I do think that if they check....well,if they have any piece of it,they have to bet the turn,so this is a great spot for the delayed cbet,at least I think so.

I would really like to know what your plan for this hand was. I don't think I ever raise small pp in this situation.The position and the stacksize just makes it to tricky to play after the flop...at least it does for me,so I'm really wondering what you were thinking here.

[registrar]

OK, I'll bite. I'd presume that SB is not check-folding much of his pf range here, which I would suggest will not be many speculative hands which will not be profitable to play three-way OOP. I'd presume that BB will check-raise a lot on this board. SB is just going to check call with 88, IMO.

I'd check. Two-flush j-high boards are not boards I want to c-bet into the blinds when one is aggro and one appears strong. OTOH, we're not winning unless we bet, so maybe bet and call if BB shoves and fold if SB shoves is more profitable?

[crunchh]

can we have your thoughs on the matter or some more opinions as it isn t totally clear cut in my mind

[LearnedfromTV]

i'm exhausted right now but I'll make a post tomorrow

[River_Mitt]

OK, I'll give this a try because it's a very interesting subject and many plays are valid.

Ideally, you hoped to steal the blinds, I might add that being UTG (and I assume you've played fairly tight, so your image should be declaring a pretty fair hand) so a fair price to test the waters.

I think a check here is a tactical mistake because you learn nothing of your position in the hand. You're worried about being behind ,being check raised and there is a flush draw available. Now, if someone has the J at least that reduces the chance they can hit a flush and if they are on a flush draw it's not worth the price to price them off the draw based on your stack size. You were the one that demonstrated strength preflop and with the checks I'd do a simple 1BB raise, a cheap c-bet but at least you're serving up some bait. If they both fanned and don't feel the urge to bluff you may take the pot. If they check raise you, well your out for fairly cheap. If no check raise your likely to get one to drop out so at least your heads up. If they both call, well .... hope for the 5 of clubs.

Weak but fairly prudent.

Cheers