AC Scenario

[Richard Tanner]

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It would be the equvialent of President Shrillary appointing Rumsfeld Secy of Defense and giving him Presidential powers because Rumsfeld threatened to nuke Washington. That isn't a democracy of any sort.

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Yes, actually, it is.

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How so? Population elects Person A as president, Person A gives the position to Person B with no election. Thats not democracy.

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Hindenburg was the duly elected president, and he had the right to appoint Hitler as chancellor. Completely democratic and constitutional.

Why are we afraid to admit that bad people can get into power through democratic means? Bad people would get into power through AC too.

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Right, this question is a little silly. It's true that it's easier for Der Furher III to take over a PMC then it would be to take over a country, it's still hard for him to take over the world.

Could he do alot of damage, yeah, drop a few atomic bombs, sure, but it's still going to be pretty costly to do so.

Cody

[Archon_Wing]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

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Well, there might be one little obstacle. It's hard to send people to die in the name and cause of "ABC Defense" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You need a good propaganda machine to fight a war like that and I am not sure what random cause you could find.

[Richard Tanner]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

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Well, there might be one little obstacle. It's hard to send people to die in the name and cause of "ABC Defense" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You need a good propaganda machine to fight a war like that and I am not sure what random cause you could find.

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Ok that's nonsense, plenty of non-state causes are out there. Religion is a good one ("Hey those guys pray to a different invisible guy...kill 'em") and any other rallying cry that groups people together (to fight another group) is possible.

It's a failing of our human minds, we'll do almost anything to "belong".

Cody

[Copernicus]

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<font color="red">so they steal it </font>

<font color="red">so they counterfeit it or steal it </font>

<font color="red"> so they steal the differential </font>

<font color="red">rofl. back to utopia. or they steal them </font>

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All valid objections, but how does this draw any contrast with life under the state? <font color="red">I don't believe that in most areas the state is de facto superior. What I do believe has two prongs. First, for AC to function at all, transaction costs are far higher to acheive equivalent results. Second, AC depends on first defeating very real human tendencies of greed, lack of cooperation and the tendency to cede power because it is expedient and generally non-threatening.</font> Under which scenario would it be easier to steal--as a lone corporation or as an established centralized government? <font color="red">we werent talking about corporations, we were talking about military organizations. I think it would be easier for a well funded mercenary organization to overcome the roadblocks to power than it would be to convert the existing military to a despots individual gain. </font>

The AC argument as I understand it is that AC is preferable, not perfect, so anything that is equally bad under statism is moot. <font color="red">I believe that is the claim as well, however they have rarely demonstrated preferability, only achieving equality at great incremental expense. That isnt moot </font> I can see it being much more difficult for a private individual running a private company to seize power than an individual member of the state with the coercive apparatus already in place. George Bush is more likely to seize dictatorial power than Warren Buffett.

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red">I disagree, but there is no way to substantiate either side. </font>

[Archon_Wing]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

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Well, there might be one little obstacle. It's hard to send people to die in the name and cause of "ABC Defense" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You need a good propaganda machine to fight a war like that and I am not sure what random cause you could find.

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Ok that's nonsense, plenty of non-state causes are out there. Religion is a good one ("Hey those guys pray to a different invisible guy...kill 'em") and any other rallying cry that groups people together (to fight another group) is possible.

It's a failing of our human minds, we'll do almost anything to "belong".

Cody

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I suppose you can, but it's hard for me to imagine people getting fanatical over a company religion, although stranger things have happened. I would imagine acts of terrorism to be more likely (a rogue violent group of nuts like Al Queda) Or maybe I'm not getting the scale of this. But I still think it'd be harder, not that it would make it any less painful

[Copernicus]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there might be one little obstacle. It's hard to send people to die in the name and cause of "ABC Defense" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You need a good propaganda machine to fight a war like that and I am not sure what random cause you could find.

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Ok that's nonsense, plenty of non-state causes are out there. Religion is a good one ("Hey those guys pray to a different invisible guy...kill 'em") and any other rallying cry that groups people together (to fight another group) is possible.

It's a failing of our human minds, we'll do almost anything to "belong".

Cody

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I suppose you can, but it's hard for me to imagine people getting fanatical over a company religion, although stranger things have happened. I would imagine acts of terrorism to be more likely (a rogue violent group of nuts) Or maybe I'm not getting the scale of this. But I still think it'd be harder, not that it would make it any less painful



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That actually brings a focus on why I dont think it would be harder for the non-state group. It isn't very difficult at all to indoctrinate and instill fanaticism in a group. It happens frequently with sports teams, fraternities, start-up companies, and most importantly the military. Things have softened since my Army days, but the breakdown of the individual and formation of a fanatical "team" was extremely efficient. The problem a statist "takeover" would have is that the military is already indoctrinated with fighting for the country, and to get their cooperation in a coup would be much more difficult than indoctrinating a mercenary group with the same fanaticism, especially since many in an all volunteer state army are already predisposed to defending the country against individual threats.

[pvn]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

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Is this plausible?

The death star appears in orbit around earth, which has recently formed a unified world government.

How would the state prevent Darth Vader from turning the planet into a pile of asteroids?

[Richard Tanner]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

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Is this plausible?

The death star appears in orbit around earth, which has recently formed a unified world government.

How would the state prevent Darth Vader from turning the planet into a pile of asteroids?

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Sweet a classic misapplication of the DSO. The DSO applies when statism is equally powerless to defend against something as an AC society would be. This isn't the case. The State (most of them) can certainly beat back Bill Gates if he invests in Harriers and M1A1s.

You can say an AC society would be able to fend him off as well, but using the DSO doesn't really work here.

Cody

[Richard Tanner]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there might be one little obstacle. It's hard to send people to die in the name and cause of "ABC Defense" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] You need a good propaganda machine to fight a war like that and I am not sure what random cause you could find.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok that's nonsense, plenty of non-state causes are out there. Religion is a good one ("Hey those guys pray to a different invisible guy...kill 'em") and any other rallying cry that groups people together (to fight another group) is possible.

It's a failing of our human minds, we'll do almost anything to "belong".

Cody

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose you can, but it's hard for me to imagine people getting fanatical over a company religion, although stranger things have happened. I would imagine acts of terrorism to be more likely (a rogue violent group of nuts like Al Queda) Or maybe I'm not getting the scale of this. But I still think it'd be harder, not that it would make it any less painful



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Think of this:

Company A: Ok workers, you aren't going to believe this, but out competitor Company B is blockading our shipping and attacking our delivery people.

Workers: My god are we next.

CompanyA: You know it, time for war.

So on and so forth.

Laughable? God I hope so, but people have fallen for worse, much worse.

Cody

[JayTee]

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Is this plausible?

Adolph Hitler III takes over ownership of ABC Defense, the largest defense company in AC Land. How would the market prevent him from turning the free society into a dictatorship?

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Is this plausible?

The death star appears in orbit around earth, which has recently formed a unified world government.

How would the state prevent Darth Vader from turning the planet into a pile of asteroids?

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Ridiculous. I am becoming more and more of a supporter of AC ideas everyday. Some of you guys (hi Nielsio) are so defensive of your position that it verges on fanaticism. All kinds of things that I previously thought required a state turn out to be able to be provided for by the market (almost certainly in a better form). Stop being childish.