Richard Feynman Vs. The Vatican

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
"The church had a monoploy on much of the educational system in Europe for many years so to address your point many "churchmen" made contributions to scientific acheviements. But science progressed all the more rapidly once the fetters were flung off from the church masters."

Well, I agree that the atomic bomb would not have been produced if the Church kept its fetters in place.

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Are you missing a 'yet,' or are you confident that the church would have been capable of making sure that nobody ever figured out how the sun worked?

[Peter666]

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[ QUOTE ]
"The church had a monoploy on much of the educational system in Europe for many years so to address your point many "churchmen" made contributions to scientific acheviements. But science progressed all the more rapidly once the fetters were flung off from the church masters."

Well, I agree that the atomic bomb would not have been produced if the Church kept its fetters in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you missing a 'yet,' or are you confident that the church would have been capable of making sure that nobody ever figured out how the sun worked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without an institution like the Church providing an organized body of knowledge, learning, and power, there could not be an educational system allowing Scientists to pursue their intellectual activities in the first place. It is not a monopoly in a system, it IS the system.

And when Science is pursued merely as an end in itself, without regard to its proper moral place, it leads to a civilization of technologically advanced but socially inferior imbeciles.

[vhawk01]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The church had a monoploy on much of the educational system in Europe for many years so to address your point many "churchmen" made contributions to scientific acheviements. But science progressed all the more rapidly once the fetters were flung off from the church masters."

Well, I agree that the atomic bomb would not have been produced if the Church kept its fetters in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you missing a 'yet,' or are you confident that the church would have been capable of making sure that nobody ever figured out how the sun worked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without an institution like the Church providing an organized body of knowledge, learning, and power, there could not be an educational system allowing Scientists to pursue their intellectual activities in the first place. It is not a monopoly in a system, it IS the system.

And when Science is pursued merely as an end in itself, without regard to its proper moral place, it leads to a civilization of technologically advanced but socially inferior imbeciles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Key word in the first sentence is like, which demolishes the importance of the rest of your post.

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
"The church had a monoploy on much of the educational system in Europe for many years so to address your point many "churchmen" made contributions to scientific acheviements. But science progressed all the more rapidly once the fetters were flung off from the church masters."

Well, I agree that the atomic bomb would not have been produced if the Church kept its fetters in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you missing a 'yet,' or are you confident that the church would have been capable of making sure that nobody ever figured out how the sun worked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without an institution like the Church providing an organized body of knowledge, learning, and power, there could not be an educational system allowing Scientists to pursue their intellectual activities in the first place. It is not a monopoly in a system, it IS the system.

And when Science is pursued merely as an end in itself, without regard to its proper moral place, it leads to a civilization of technologically advanced but socially inferior imbeciles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Key word in the first sentence is like, which demolishes the importance of the rest of your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make sense. There was no institution like the Church between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Protestant Reformation. It was the organizational body that allowed knowledge to be preserved and built upon.

[carlo]

I'd ;ike to offer this particular understanding. When one speaks of the Roman Empire one can't say that it terminated immediately for example at the Germanic invasions or the pressing of Christianity upon the Empire by Constantine.

Consideration should be given that the Empire did indeed continue specifically until the Age of Reason and its effects are even continuing today. Roman custom was to include all religions of subjected peoples into their Pantheon and initially would have done the same with Christianity but strong forces on both sides of the political spectrum prevailed and Christianity was made the "Official Religion" of the Empire at the time of Constantine.

So, what one sees , is an Empire of customs, laws, political structure and political/earthly power continuing under the aegis of the Papacy which also had the Christian Geist under its belt. What one sees in the Roman Catholic Church are the transformed institutions of the Empire but not exactly the same. Make no mistake about it, Constantine was a Roman Emperor and only lack of insight wopuld conclude that "every thing changed" at that moment in time such that "Rome no longer existed".

I'd liken the Christians who merged into the Empire as a young boy who puts on his Father's winter coat and large brimed hat. The coat reaches beyond the floor and of course the hat has its comical side. The "coat" is the Empire and the young boy the early Christians whose karma is the transformmation of an Empire buopyed by the Christian Geist but at every stage carrying the burden/advantages and corruptions of the "old way".

Rome was not built nor dies in a day.

[Zeno]

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Without an institution like the Church providing an organized body of knowledge, learning, and power, there could not be an educational system allowing Scientists to pursue their intellectual activities in the first place. It is not a monopoly in a system, it IS the system.


[/ QUOTE ]

"allowing Scientists" ? As if some authority is granting a license to pursuit of knowledge. But this type of thinking is why the enviable happened and the Holy Church pronounced itself as the champions of limited discourse and the primal institution inimical to freedom of inquiry and thought. It was not until the 20th century that Holy Church ceased, somewhat, this imbecilic practice. It is mainly some Protestant sects that now take up this cross with Holy Zeal and war head on with the scientific method and those that employ it.

Also there were various systems/institutions or cultures existing prior to the Holy Church and after the Holy Church lost influence and dominance that provided impetus for scientific pursuits. And under much more freedom I would add.



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And when Science is pursued merely as an end in itself, without regard to its proper moral place, it leads to a civilization of technologically advanced but socially inferior imbeciles.

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Let me guess - the Holy Church dictates what the proper moral place of all Science is suppose to be?

"socially inferior imbeciles" are not a product of science, which is generally rational, but of other forces. For one example say an overriding bureaucratic institution run by an orthodox brood of men still enmeshed in medieval thinking and practices.

-Zeno, The Antipope

[Peter666]

""allowing Scientists" ? As if some authority is granting a license to pursuit of knowledge."

Absolutely. Scientists do not come out of their mother's wombs with a chemistry kit. They must go through an educational system before being capable of making new discoveries.

"But this type of thinking is why the enviable happened and the Holy Church pronounced itself as the champions of limited discourse and the primal institution inimical to freedom of inquiry and thought"

Hogwash. The Church's egalitarianism allowed people of all social classes to enter monasteries (which turned into Universities as time progressed) to pursue knowledge. Intellectual controversies were always a part of this system.

"Also there were various systems/institutions or cultures existing prior to the Holy Church and after the Holy Church lost influence and dominance that provided impetus for scientific pursuits. And under much more freedom I would add."

The last sentence is false. The science of the ancients was only possible through the creation of leisure time, thus allowing intellectuals to pursue their studies. This upper class rested on the foundation of slaves, who never had the leisure opportunities to pursue Science or the Arts. They did all the dirty work so a priveleged few could study. Likewise, the moderns needed the preexisting civilization to continue their activities. I agree with Carlo below that this was a linear historical progression from ancient times.

"Let me guess - the Holy Church dictates what the proper moral place of all Science is suppose to be?"

LDO. Faith and morals are the prerogative of the Church.

[Zeno]

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"Also there were various systems/institutions or cultures existing prior to the Holy Church and after the Holy Church lost influence and dominance that provided impetus for scientific pursuits. And under much more freedom I would add."


The last sentence is false.

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You misunderstood the meaning. Freedom of inquiry was what I was referring to.


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The Church's egalitarianism allowed people of all social classes to enter monasteries (which turned into Universities as time progressed) to pursue knowledge. Intellectual controversies were always a part of this system.


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Debates and "intellectual" pursuits were a part of the system but limited and controlled, and vows twist the meaning of true freedom and honest intellectual pursuits. It is a fettered system that you tout as so grand and has many inherent shortcomings. And that is setting aside other facts of abuse within the monastery system. Long live Joesph McCabe.

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Faith and morals are the prerogative of the Church.

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Not much more to discuss as this is total rot in my opinion. Religious thuggery. By the way, you would make a great Jesuit also! But a better Pope.

-Zeno, The Antipope

[craig]

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LDO. Faith and morals are the prerogative of the Church.

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I assume some leveling here? Regardless that could easily be taken out of the context.

craig

[Peter666]

"Freedom of inquiry was what I was referring to."

You treat inquiry as an end in itself rather than a means to truth.

"and vows twist the meaning of true freedom and honest intellectual pursuits."

Because one needs to have sex and lots of money to make scientific conclusions?

"Long live Joesph McCabe."

By his own admission, this militant atheist is enjoying...nothing. He's dead. Unless the Catholics are right though, in which case he is in everlasting fire.

The epitaph on his gravestone is "He was a rebel to his last day". Why wouldn't it rather say something like "He relentlessly pursued Truth." The reason is because to him, as to the devil, rebellion is an end in itself. He had a neurotic problem against authority.

A passive atheist I can understand. They have not been convinced. But a militant atheist is the most pathetic contradiction imaginable. Long live death!