I really don't buy into most conspiracy theories BUT.......

[Taraz]

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I've read articles (over time) dealing with the Saudi-funded U.S. mosques, the religious madrassas in Pakistan, and I've read parts of speeches or sermons given by the top Muftis or Imams such as in Mecca; major religious organizations and leaders. And let's throw the Iranian state religious leadrs in there since they lead a major sect and movement and doctrine (replete with political aspects as well). So, much of what I've read of that sort of thing being preached or taught was indeed radical or very fundamentally oriented, that I am guessing that it is not unrepresentative of much or even most of what gets taught and preached by major Islamic religious leaders and organizations. The State Dept. had to put pressure on the Saudis to revise their U.S. mosque material (and I read an article quoting some of it) because it was so bad. I'm guessing that this is not uncommon because I've read of it in multiple areas. That's a bit of an educated guess, at least.

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I don't doubt that this is occurring, but I was wondering why you believe this to be so widespread. I was more interested in if you had read anything about how prevalent these things are.

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I agree and I didn't claim it was most; I said I'm guessing. I'll be on the lookout for additional information. If it's not most, it's at least a very significant bloc and doubtless the largest bloc of mosques in the U.S. that are funded by a single-source.

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I dunno, I think I would just make the opposite assumption. I would guess that these views aren't that widespread at the moment. You would think this is especially true in the United States because people have access to more information.

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By the way, thanks for your reasonable approach, rational analysis, and good questions in this thread.

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I know it's rare in this forum, but that's the only way to get anything meaningful from the discussion. Thank you though.

[Taraz]

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Now, why does it matter if they are Muslims? It only matters if you think Muslim = Muslim, which of course it doesn't. This is actually the point you and the rest of the Muslims (not saying you are Muslims, simply grouping) should be trying to get at. It works well for you, not so well for the other Muslims, though. From your perspective, all you need to do is show that, sure, these terrorists ARE motivated by religion, just not Islam, or not Islam-real, if you'd prefer. They are being inspired by Islam-fake, which is of course no less legit than Islam-real, but at least it forces everyone to stop treating the followers of Islam-real like they were Islam-fakists.

But of course, this sucks for the Islam-realists, because now they have to try to show they THEIR version is somehow better or more legit. Which it isn't.

But secular supporters of the majority Muslim population shouldn't handcuff themselves the way Muslim supporters are forced to do. Take the easy (correct) way out!

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I think we have to make a distinction between motivation and justification. I would disagree with you in terms of motivation and agree with you for the justification. From what I have read/discussed, these people don't have religious grievances so much as political grievances.

Take the Palestinian situation for example. They have plenty of reason to be upset. They were displaced from their land, Israel is causing a lot of collateral damage with their anti-terror attacks, they are often treated poorly, etc. This is all motivation for ill-will towards the U.S. and other states that back Israel.

Now radical Islam provides the justification for fighting back with terror. You don't have to worry about the moral qualms if you choose a system of morality in which you can physically attack whoever is doing you wrong. My point was that people choose this form of the religion because it allows them to do what they really want to do and/or it gives them a purpose which falls in line with their ultimate desires.

I know you want me to join the anti-religion camp, so I have to commend your effort here. You make a decent point. I would disagree with the statement that radical Islam is as "legit" as more mainstream practices of Islam, but that deserves it's own thread (probably in SMP).

[GoodCallYouWin]

" State Dept. had to put pressure on the Saudis to revise their U.S. mosque material"

I guess that whole "congress shall pass no law" part only applies to your country, not someone elses.

[Rearden]

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" State Dept. had to put pressure on the Saudis to revise their U.S. mosque material"

I guess that whole "congress shall pass no law" part only applies to your country, not someone elses.

[/ QUOTE ]

That could morph into a whole different debate about the legal situations where "hate speech" is and is not protected... on the home front that can be an issue... with regards to literature coming in from the outside I sadly think regardless of the source or even content by claiming its "dangerous" or "un-American" you'll earn votes or moves against it in government.

[Prodigy54321]

probably just an ad campaign for another cartoon, LDO

[John Kilduff]

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also let's mention that the US is funding some terrorists in iraq because they are opposed to other terrorists in iraq, source sy hersh from a month or two ago.

I mean i see a lot of people condemning radical islam and islam in general but I don't see anyone condemning the US, british, or israelis who fund and train these people, with the exception of the russians/soviets who maintain that pretty much all terrorism is state sponsored to achieve national interests.

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Absolutely true, the U.S. is backing the Iraqi government which is (perhaps clandestinely or unofficially) supporting death squads.

In this whole thread, I'm not trying to condemn, but rather to analyze. Thanks for the additional observation.

[PLOlover]

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Absolutely true, the U.S. is backing the Iraqi government which is (perhaps clandestinely or unofficially) supporting death squads.

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no, no, according to sy hersh the US is backing certain segments of the iraqi resistance. It's no stretch of the imagination to say that the US is financing al-kida in iraq if by al-kida you mean the anti-iran minority religious groups in iraq. I think hersh's article comes out and says the US is finacing al-kida in iraq. seriously.

[morphball]

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lol
or,

It turns out they don't just attack us for being involved in their region, they attack us because they don't like our way of living and our religion.

What a surprise.

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It would a pretty big suprise, considering the only public figures that say such things are Bush-bots.

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Perhaps, but terrorists in general are simply murderers you use whatever cause is convenient to them as an excuse...they are nothing more than pyschopaths dressed in ideological clothing...