I really don't buy into most conspiracy theories BUT.......

[govman6767]

I need some input here.

The 2 cars filled with Nails and gasoline they found in london UNDETONATEED. They are saying Al-Quida crapheads are most likely responsible.

Why would they do it. It makes no sense.

England just got a new prime minister that says he does not want his country to be the U.S's bitch anymore.

Al-Crapida could have used this for propoganda saying they are really winning the war in Iraq and that the Brits are definiatly the next to leave Iraq. And that they are chasing them away.

The prime minister makes a pretty good speech against being the U.S.'s bitch and WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.


OMG 2 car bombs THAT DID NOT GO OFF and must have been Al-Crapida.


Nothing says let's get back into the war on terror like a plot against your home city.

This sounds more like a government plot by someone other than an Al-Crapida attack.

All these Arabs do is make bombs and they could not set them off.

I hate conspiracy theorys but this whole thing stinks to the high heaven.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see the Brits back into the war on radical islam but not by shady government plots.

[Taso]

lol
or,

It turns out they don't just attack us for being involved in their region, they attack us because they don't like our way of living and our religion.

What a surprise.

[Bill Haywood]

Why the attacks were not completed? Murphy's law.

[jt082005]

"I really don't buy into most conspiracy theories BUT...."

who are you trying to fool

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
lol
or,

It turns out they don't just attack us for being involved in their region, they attack us because they don't like our way of living and our religion.

What a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would a pretty big suprise, considering the only public figures that say such things are Bush-bots.

[silver book]

I hate when people use the word conspiracy theories. So if its true, its just simply called the truth, but if people think its false than its a conspiracy theory. There so many historical things that im sure were once conspiracy theories that did turn out to be true. For example, Hitler burning down a building and blaming it on the opponent party and then using this incident to gain power. Im sure some people would say that everyone knew Hitler really burned down that building. But if everyone knew that, why would they have elected Hitler?

Its wierd as poker players that we think our government doesnt ever bluff? Where do bluffs work best, at the lower stakes or the higher stakes?

[GoodCallYouWin]

"It turns out they don't just attack us for being involved in their region, they attack us because they don't like our way of living and our religion. "

LOL! I guess this explains why 15 out of 19 of the terrorists were Saudis (and America, against the wishes of the Saudi people but with the support of the dictators who rule Saudi Arabia, has stepped up occupation).

Do you really think a bunch of camel [censored] where sitting around one day, and they said to themselves "gee, I really don't like how nice the Americans treat their women and I want them to believe in Allah... lets go attack them and say it's because they're occupying our land".

Or do you think it's because American soldiers at the direction of their generals and politicians went to Muslim land and killed men, women and children?

[Rearden]

[ QUOTE ]
"It turns out they don't just attack us for being involved in their region, they attack us because they don't like our way of living and our religion. "

LOL! I guess this explains why 15 out of 19 of the terrorists were Saudis (and America, against the wishes of the Saudi people but with the support of the dictators who rule Saudi Arabia, has stepped up occupation).

Do you really think a bunch of camel [censored] where sitting around one day, and they said to themselves "gee, I really don't like how nice the Americans treat their women and I want them to believe in Allah... lets go attack them and say it's because they're occupying our land".

Or do you think it's because American soldiers at the direction of their generals and politicians went to Muslim land and killed men, women and children?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really.... we killed lots of Saudi women and children (why 15/19 of the hijackers were Saudi)? Or is it because Saudi Arabia is a breeding ground for radical Islam and we haven't/they haven't done a thing about it?

We've also killed a lot more German, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. women and children... I don't see any of those nations exporting fanatics.

If you're looking for a common thread in most terror attacks worldwide in the past few years I'll give you a good starting point: Islam

I completely agree that US policy in the middle east has been perhaps worse than should be humanly possible. I would also like to suggest however that the statements made that "Islam is a peaceful religion" are, in some respects, a bunch of crap. Muslims were more than happy to try to match the crusades in barbarism and, if you take any class in Islamic history, you'll note that fundamentalist Islamic clerics have taken harder and harder stances over the years.... the Muslim world went from a land of science and a fair amount of tolerance (when Europe was in the dark) to a place/ideology where angry and unemployed young men seek vindication and an outlet for their anger. There are of course millions of peaceful law abiding Muslims out there who do not see their faith as, nor use their faith as, justification for violence; however these moderate Muslims have done little to muzzle the violent groups that hide within their flock so to speak.

I do not think that a bunch of "camel [censored]" (your words) were sitting around and arbitrarily decided to screw around with the US/UK/Spain/Australia/countries-that-run-Mohammed-cartoons, etc. I do think however that in societies where immense amounts of oil wealth have done little to help the general populace an angry and often unemployed and disadvantaged youth shifted from crime (like in the US) to a belief system that was already being manipulated to support faith based violence.

I dont have any links handy but there are plenty of new(er) polls out in regards to how Muslims across the board (nation by nation breakdowns as well) view the US, Bin Laden, and the justifications for suicide bombings; the results shown by unbiased professional polling organizations are truly frightening.

The problem of Islamic terrorism should obviously be directly linked to Islamic fanaticism. Though like any component it's not 100% of the cause (socio-economics being up there in my opinion)... but we're kidding ourselves to divorce the ideological underpinnings of this movement from the violence itself (fwiw we would also be barbarians to apply this to Muslims across the board; ie those moderate Muslims that you sadly never hear about) when we claim that they're only doing it because of our inept policy... I mean damn they killed people over cartoons for [censored] sake.

It's called religious violence and it's been happening all over the world for thousands of years... No one in New York or London cared when no one in New York or London died over the conflict in Kashmir, Rwanda, the crusades, the inquisition, etc....when that changed suddenly people started coming to a realization that "Oh man, certain unsavory types manipulate belief systems to suit their own violent ends... and what's more people eat it up". And, just as it would be ignorant to claim that any of those conflicts were purely political, so to would it be wrong to claim that this modern terrorism doesn't have a heavy religious component.

Regardless of US policy shifts after this "lovely" president leaves office there is still an up and coming generation of young fanatics throughout the Muslim world that have been forcefed a version of the Quran which supports violence and intolerance, are backed into a corner economically being part of the "underclass" in violent, unbalanced, and often US backed, dictatorships, and finally not being given any outside view of the world... they memorize the Quran in Arabic (even if it's not their native language)... they don't go on to college, learn foreign languages or other cultures (I would be curious to see how US high schoolers stack up against "classically educated" students of the Quran in an exam on world history and events... I sadly think we would win... it's sad that we would beat anyone), ever get to meet the people they're taught to despise, etc. That in my opinion is the reason why we'll be dealing with this issue 20, 30, 40 years down the road [of course in all fairness if you change the time and place we'd be talking about similar situations in Europe historically with respect to Christians].

With respect to London. I don't think enough of the facts are in just yet... depending on who they arrest and what evidence comes out I'll be curious to see what the exact plan was. Conspiracy theories are often comforting because they imply that a known entity (the government) can control everything as opposed to the scary realization that there are people (however inept; ie unexploded ordinance which you ought to know OP isn't unheard of) out there unchecked.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

If you're looking for a common thread in most terror attacks worldwide in the past few years I'll give you a good starting point: Islam

I completely agree that US policy in the middle east has been perhaps worse than should be humanly possible. I would also like to suggest however that the statements made that "Islam is a peaceful religion" are, in some respects, a bunch of crap. Muslims were more than happy to try to match the crusades in barbarism and, if you take any class in Islamic history, you'll note that fundamentalist Islamic clerics have taken harder and harder stances over the years.... the Muslim world went from a land of science and a fair amount of tolerance (when Europe was in the dark) to a place/ideology where angry and unemployed young men seek vindication and an outlet for their anger. There are of course millions of peaceful law abiding Muslims out there who do not see their faith as, nor use their faith as, justification for violence; however these moderate Muslims have done little to muzzle the violent groups that hide within their flock so to speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moderate Muslims never get nearly as much press as the fanatics. You can find countless numbers of moderate groups speaking out against the violence.

[ QUOTE ]

I do not think that a bunch of "camel [censored]" (your words) were sitting around and arbitrarily decided to screw around with the US/UK/Spain/Australia/countries-that-run-Mohammed-cartoons, etc. I do think however that in societies where immense amounts of oil wealth have done little to help the general populace an angry and often unemployed and disadvantaged youth shifted from crime (like in the US) to a belief system that was already being manipulated to support faith based violence.

I dont have any links handy but there are plenty of new(er) polls out in regards to how Muslims across the board (nation by nation breakdowns as well) view the US, Bin Laden, and the justifications for suicide bombings; the results shown by unbiased professional polling organizations are truly frightening.

The problem of Islamic terrorism should obviously be directly linked to Islamic fanaticism. Though like any component it's not 100% of the cause (socio-economics being up there in my opinion)... but we're kidding ourselves to divorce the ideological underpinnings of this movement from the violence itself (fwiw we would also be barbarians to apply this to Muslims across the board; ie those moderate Muslims that you sadly never hear about) when we claim that they're only doing it because of our inept policy... I mean damn they killed people over cartoons for [censored] sake.

It's called religious violence and it's been happening all over the world for thousands of years... No one in New York or London cared when no one in New York or London died over the conflict in Kashmir, Rwanda, the crusades, the inquisition, etc....when that changed suddenly people started coming to a realization that "Oh man, certain unsavory types manipulate belief systems to suit their own violent ends... and what's more people eat it up". And, just as it would be ignorant to claim that any of those conflicts were purely political, so to would it be wrong to claim that this modern terrorism doesn't have a heavy religious component.

Regardless of US policy shifts after this "lovely" president leaves office there is still an up and coming generation of young fanatics throughout the Muslim world that have been forcefed a version of the Quran which supports violence and intolerance, are backed into a corner economically being part of the "underclass" in violent, unbalanced, and often US backed, dictatorships, and finally not being given any outside view of the world... they memorize the Quran in Arabic (even if it's not their native language)... they don't go on to college, learn foreign languages or other cultures (I would be curious to see how US high schoolers stack up against "classically educated" students of the Quran in an exam on world history and events... I sadly think we would win... it's sad that we would beat anyone), ever get to meet the people they're taught to despise, etc. That in my opinion is the reason why we'll be dealing with this issue 20, 30, 40 years down the road [of course in all fairness if you change the time and place we'd be talking about similar situations in Europe historically with respect to Christians].


[/ QUOTE ]


I'm glad you recognize that it's not just the religion. That's a huge point. I would further contend that any ideology can be used and twisted to manipulate people. It's naive to think that there is anything inherently violent about the Islamic religion itself. It is something that many people identify with, and if the crazy fundies describe things in religious terms they can garner a lot of support.

(As a note, the poll numbers that you mention support my claim that Islam is probably the smallest factor in determining whether someone supports terror or not.)

[Rearden]

Taraz,

1- Moderate Muslims should most certainly get more press. I also think though, because of fear, moderates are silent in many of the countries we are talking about

2- I would happily go with a statement that suggests that the Bible=the Quran in terms of violence and teachings that can be used for violence; hence why both religions have violent supporters and violent pasts. I will however suggest to you that the modern radical teaching of the Quran in these fundamentalist sects highlights the violence; that's what makes "radical" Islam truly radical.

3- You're suggesting that poll numbers taken on a nation-nation basis, within Muslim populations only (left that out in my original post) ... would suggest what? I would merely suggest what they do in fact show... that a pretty shocking number of Muslims in developed and non developed nations support the use of suicide bombing and campaigns of terrorism. (This of course does not mean that I consider the objectors to these notions somehow more violent for being Muslims) (At some point Im sure we can google those results on up for the thread... if it hasn't already been done in other threads)

It is of course not just the religion. The society, the economics, etc all play a significant role. I just think it's naive to say "OMG they hate us because we have troops in Saudi Arabia or support Israel" when it is faaaar more complex than just that. As I mentioned before I think the largest components have been the shift in Islamic teachings (in some groups/regions focusing on more violent aspects or more properly selectively showing the Quran to justify violence), that educations impact on fragile, stunted, and scared youth, and our unwillingness to actually bother with those two issues.