New Bankroll Management Plan

[Carolina Pirate]

I have a different take on BRM that after loosing more money then I make (yes, I have a problem but I am trying to get it under control now). I have come up with a plan that allows me to play a much higher percentage of my new bankroll but I have to walk away sooner if I am losing or winning. My thoughts are to take a $50 deposit on FTP and $25 on PS and start at the lowest buy-ins for ring games and SNGs/MTTS and build from there. Here's the catch:

I put 20% of my BR in play for the first 20 sessions and then back it off from there every 20 sessions to where eventually (and hopefully) it will actually be less then 1% in play after 500 winning sessions. Yes I know that this seems odd but using this plan can minimize the hit to my BR by this key element:

I quit winner of 50% of the amount in play (i.e. start with $10 quit when at $15) or I must quit if I loose 25% of my buy-in at that table (i.e. start with $10 quit when at $7.50)

This way, with starting with a small bankroll I can still sit at a table and have a few chips to play with. That lose = 5% of my BR. If I lose.

As far as SNGs & MTTs, I will not buy into any that are more then my allowed losing session amount. Example, I only play tourneys that are no greater then what my max losing session can be. As seen from above, I am only allowed to lose $2.50 so that is the max amount for a tourney that I can buy in too.


for FTP:
BR=$50
%in play = 20
Amount = $10
%to win = 50%
Quit winner at $15
Quit loser at $7.50
Max lose = $2.50
%lose = 5%

This would work the very same way for PS but with only $25 since they have the smaller tables at .01/.02 NL and .02/.04 LT

I would allow myself to keep playing of I'm not tire, the game is sweet, I'm not being a donk, etc.. the things that I can do well when I'm focused. However, I can not lose anymore the 25% of my stack at anytime. So if I am on a rush and sitting at $25, I must leave once I lose 25% of that amount or whatever the highest amount is that I make it to.

I think this this will work well for me, it allows me a little more freedom then what Chris F used and the 5% of only buying in for 5% of your roll.

A great concept of this plan is that over the long term, measured in sessions, I actually decrease the % in play which in turn limits the % lose during a session.

Ex. if I put together an unlikely string of 50 winning sessions on FTP, I would have a BR of $3,525 and risk 14% of that in play which is $508 quitting winner at $761 and loser at $381 which would equal 3.6% of my total BR.

I feel that the key is the conservative plan on winning only 50% of what I have in play and leaving if I lose 25% of what I have in play. This way I can suffer some bad runs but still not hurt myself. I just have to make sure that I don't bonk off all those chips in a big pot or set myself up for 2nd best. But if that happens, I can still recover.

I have it on an excel sheet if anyone would like to look at it and tell me what they think. My only question/concern is when to move up to a higher limit each time. I am also trying to stick to a buy-in guide to where my BR must be to a certain size before moving up.

Thanks for any advise guys.
CP ftp_pirate@yahoo.com

[ottsville]

tl:dr

Keep it simple. You're more likely to stick to it.

Use search function.

[Bona]

Poker is essentially a game of skill with elements of chance that create short term anomalies.

Therefore, in the long term, it is not possible to become a winning player by controlling only bankroll issues or by substituting progressive betting systems for competence.

Controlling your bankroll is only important to eliminate the possibility that a random downswing will bust you out of the game.

The real key to playing winning poker is to develop your skill level to exceed the skill of your average opponents (+5-10% to pay the rake)

Develop that skill level by: reading serious books about how to win at poker, review your own play to see how well you conform to winning play level, post hands for good players to review, respond to posted hands to see if others concur, participate in session reviews where you have the opportunity to review how others play and vice versa.

Keep very accurate records (PT is great or some other way) this is the only way you can tell. over time, that you are or aren't playing at a winning skill level.

When you are confident you play at a winning level then is the time to worry about bankroll management. (hint: it will take care of itself with no "systems" needed.)

[Harv72b]

Setting stop win levels because of your bankroll not only means that you're playing too high to begin with (you are), but will cut down significantly on your long term profits. Sessions should not be about winning or losing X dollars, they should be about playing when you have an edge and quitting when you don't (or when you have more important/essential things to do).

The system you have described is very similar to what many players implement when they are taking a shot at a higher game, the core difference being that they should be taking that shot with only a portion of their overall bankroll, and a portion that they can afford to lose.

You are much better off staying within the standard bankroll requirements for your game. Not only to reduce your risk of ruin, but also because most every successful player needs to grind their way up through the microstakes in order to develop the skill necessary to beat the higher games. Or at least up through what amounts to microstakes based on their financial status. These forums are littered with stories from extremely successful players, at all stakes & in all disciplines of poker, who started out playing for pennies at a time with a bankroll that wouldn't buy dinner at a decent restaurant. Even Chris "Jesus" Ferguson built a five-figure online bankroll up from two $1 deposits on one site while maintaining strict bankroll controls on himself the whole time. He's currently attempting to do the same on FTP with no initial deposit.

Poker is a game of patience and discipline. You need both on the table in order to succeed, and you definitely need both when it comes to your bankroll to avoid losing it. Sadly, these forums and the poker world are also littered with stories from people who failed to protect their bankroll & busted out.

And finally, seek help for your self-admitted gambling problem. Things like this plan you outlined here are not going to help to get it under control, but rather are attempts by yourself to rationalize and condone your problem. If you cannot control yourself enough to stay at stakes you can afford to play at (and lose at, as the case often is for anyone), you should most likely not be playing poker.

[ShipitFMA]

I would suggest making some poker friends, if that makes sense. If you speak about poker on aim/msn with people regually you will find it alot harder to tilt lose money and alot easier to stay to your plan.

As for your plan, with the 50$ just stick to 0.01/0.02c NL and moveup when you have 25buyins for the next level. You should be fine following this and speaking to people

[thesilkworm]

[ QUOTE ]
leaving if I lose 25% of what I have in play.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're going to fold aces preflop if someone pushes all-in and it represents more than 25% of what you have in play?

No, of course not, and they will get cracked 1/5 of the time. You *will* have sessions where you will lose >25% of what you have in play, much more in fact. This is why proper bankroll management is essential.

Please, do yourself a favour and follow a more conventional bankroll managment strategy. I wish you the best of luck should you choose to go with your original plan, but you are just asking for trouble.

[DWarrior]

yeah dude, 25% is like an average losing hand.

Just stick to 20 buyins. Either deposit another $150, or go to PS .01/.02.

[Carolina Pirate]

I think all of you are correct in some respects. But I always challenge conventional wisdom. But hey, its conventional wisdom for a reason right? B/c it works.
But hey, its worth a shot. I think that true BR is evaluating the game at key points. Is this game profitable? Am I playing well? I'm I just lucky or unlucky during this run of cards?
I think that any BR plan has to be change and tweaked throughout a players run. Especially if you're like my self and LOVE PL Triple Draw, the BEST game out there. But that's for another topic.
Thanks for some feedback. And for me personally, trying to defy conventional wisdom is a challenge and motivates me in my personal life/career as a sales manager. So I'm usually wrong about things but I have a big enough ego to prove the industry wrong and end up being successful at it. So let's find out what happens after one week of play. I start the trail period tonight. Wish me luck!

CP

[DWarrior]

Sorry, but conventional wisdom when it comes to BR management on 2+2 is derived based on formulas by mason/sklansky and made standard by hundreds of pro players / grinders / serious players.

You're challenging it without having the necessary math background, lack of experience, and possible a gambling problem. You have an extremely high probability of being proven wrong rather quickly. You cannot successfully challenge something you do not understand.

The main reason BR management exists is so that you don't have to be concerned about your BR when you're playing.

[ottsville]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a different take on BRM that after loosing more money then I make

[/ QUOTE ]

A loosing player doesn't need bankroll management.

[ QUOTE ]
But I always challenge conventional wisdom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps that's why you are loosing more than winning? A road has been laid in front of you by others more experienced and more knowledgeable than you. Experience is the best teacher, but the smart man capitalizes on the experience of others. You can follow it and learn, or stumble your way through. Good luck with that.