25NL PF Decision w/QQ

[crazymoose]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $27.05
SB: $24.20
BB: $7.95
UTG: $21.55
UTG+1: $24
Hero (UTG+2): $23.80
MP1: $18.30
MP2: $9.75
CO: $12.90

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, 2 folds, CO calls $1.25, 2 folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $2.25</font>, UTG calls $2, Hero...?

BB is a shortstack obv and I haven't seen him do too much as of yet. CO and UTG seem to be loose-passive donkites.

I think calling the min 3-bet is out of the question. I want to raise enough that the donkeys will call but will be incorrect in doing so. So my ? is what is a good raise-size here?

This is kinda basic but I've been having trouble in these spots lately for some reason.

[Sounded Simple]

The min 3-bet by the BB says QQ+ AK to me.
UTGs limp call says med-low PP or a couple of high cards (would not be surprised to see any two sooted though)
CO could have anything bit probably same range as UTG.

Why do you think calling is out of the question? There is a good chance that your behind.
If you re-open the betting I think that the BB is probably gonna shove on you.

Its only $1.00 to call here, the pot is $7.50, even though there are shorties in there its a nice spot to setmine.
If the CO raises again then I re-evaluate along the same lines.

I call and bet out hard if I hit a Q.
If I have an underpair then Im playing it cautious, its a marginal spot and QQ is rarely the best by the end 4-way.

[ranka]

I would just shove because these loose-passive donks may think you are isolating the shortie and they may call with any pocket, AK, AQ, AT blabla.

[Flups]

I think I would just put BB AI and if one of the other two villains comes along I would stick it in on any non A/K flop. UTG and CO haven't shown any strength, so you're basically playing against the BB. With the dead money already in the pot I'm always sticking it in vs. a 32 BB stack with QQ (I guess if his range is something like AK, JJ+ this would be mathematically correct(?)). If you just call, you give UTG and CO good odds to call for set value and you could get in trouble when flopping an overpair, which scenario Sounded Simple did not include in his post. So, I think calling indeed is out of the question here.

If BB had a full stack calling makes more sense, although you're then basically setmining with your QQ; playing very cautiously when the flop presents all undercards and giving up when an A or K flops.

[Sounded Simple]

Sorry:

The last line of my previous post should have read -
"If I have an OVERpair then Im playing it cautious, its a marginal spot and QQ is rarely the best by the end 4-way. "

If I flopped an underpair I just get out rather than pay off A4 etc.

Flat calling is my play unless I have reads that they are getting it in with a wide range.
Honestly none of the plays these guys have made so far make much sense.

One thing is for sure, the next raise I make is all in.
If I think they are total donks - all in now and ride the variance
If I hit a set all in on the flop (pot would be ~9.00 and most of the villans wont have much more than that left)

[Brocktoon]

My standard line in this spot is always to raise just enough to put the BB all-in. I also think that a QQ+/AK range is WAY too tight to put BB on. I'm happy to take on the BB HU + dead money but if UTG or CO want to keep calling that's fine too.

I raise to $8 there, is this a mistake?

[ledders07]

i call for a set here, get rid with overcard flop.

be very cautious if you have the overpair on flop and try not to stack off if they're still interseted.

[Eggpie]

You HAVE to raise here. You are ahead of BB's range for sure, and you can't let CO and UTG see cheap flops with hands you are also beating.

You're right that QQ rarely wins a 4-way pot at the end.
Solution: raise!

you'll hopefully raise enough to put BB all in, and if you get one caller then you can generate a side pot vs him on a favourable flop (no A/K)

[Das Budrick]

wow guys no this is absolutely not a time to be setmining.

no one has done anything to indicate you don't have the best hand. if it was heads up between you and the BB it would be an obvious shove, and all that dead money is even more incentive to raise it up. QQ fares much much better heads up than it does 4-handed and there is just no reason to simply call and let A5s hit an ace on the flop.


Raising just enough put the BB in is too small here. I'm not sure if it would be better to raise it to $12 or just shove.

I probably shove pf to isolate the shortstack whose range is in terrible shape against QQ and to pick up the dead money.

[King Spew]

[ QUOTE ]
You HAVE to raise here. You are ahead of BB's range for sure, and you can't let CO and UTG see cheap flops with hands you are also beating.

[/ QUOTE ]