Beginner question about blackjack?

[sweeng8]

Hi,
I am a poker player, but recently started getting into blackjack theory a little, though I have yet to really play it properly. I have a question regarding the edge a player can get over the house...
I read somewhere, cant remember where, that against any average guy the house has about a 3-5% edge, against basic blackjack strategy they have about 1-2% edge, and against card counters, the edge becomes from 0% to negative 2-3%

Is this generally accurate? If so, how can the very best blackjack players give themselves a big enough edge to win substantially long term? Even if they have a 1% edge over the house that doesnt seem enough to be a 'successfull' player?

As I say, im new to the game so excuse my ignorance if I have it totally wrong

[playersare]

I think your bell curve is a little too wide. casinos generally calculate theo for everyday players at 2-3% (perhaps more for 6:5 single deckers), 0.5-1% for basic strategy, and then 1-2% max advantage to a counter.

the American Casino Guide reports the gross house advantage in blackjack for the state of nevada in fiscal year 2006 was 2.36%, with a net drop of 11.83%.

counting can be done, but as you have hypothesized, the long term edge is small, variance is wide, bankroll reqs steep, and countermeasures always looming.

[sweeng8]

thanks for the reply,
in that case, how can there be such a thing as "pro" blackjack players, if the edge is so small?

[ChipWrecked]

Pros are either playing a large bankroll, spreading bets at high-minimum tables with favorable rules and penetration, or they are members of a team.

[spyu]

Depending on the rules and number of decks the house edge changes. So does basic strategy according to those rule changes. In vegas if you play perfect basic according to the game you are playing the house house edge varies from
.2%-.61%. Counting depending on what system you're using at which game and how accurately you execute can realistically give you probably from
.5%-1.5%.
Most pros are probably playing at a 1% edge. So like the other poster says it's a lot of work and a huge BR for the small edge you get plus the variance can drive you crazy because you really don't know anything about your edge until you play full time for a year. And good luck lasting that long counting cards. So if I were you I'd stick to poker. I mean I play it recreationally, but I play w/ decent rules and I count, you might as well use everything you can if you're going to play anyways. But I wouldn't try and make a living off of it.

To give you an illustration you need about $30k to play at a $25 min table if you're going to play shoe games. There aren't any decent double decks in Vegas until the $100 min level.

Also most pros don't play in the U.S. because there are places overseas w/ much better rules. If you can find any place that has standard rules w/ early surrender you can beat it flat betting.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't any decent double decks in Vegas until the $100 min level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last October, I was in Vegas, and Slotsa Fun was spreading a $5 minimum S17 D9 2 decker with good penetration. The table max was either $200 or $300, so it probably wouldn't interest a pro, but it was a great game for recreational card counting. Unfortunately, I ran bad and lost about $100. Variance is wicked in blackjack, and is actually higher in good games (more opportunities for big bets). Blackjack pretty much sucks at the big strip casinos, with high minimums and sucky rules for the shoes, very high minimums for double deckers, and far too many 6:5 single deckers, which are usually the only games with low minimum bets.

The trip last October was primarily a business trip, so I didn't get downtown or out to any of the "locals" casinos, so I'm not sure what the situation is like there. However, I did notice that the smaller strip casinos, like Slotsa fun, O'Shea's nd Casino Royale, had much better table games, with better rules and lower minimums on blackjack, and lower minimums and higher odds on craps. They also seemed to be getting a lot more action on their table games. The big properties seemed to have most of their tables closed and the ones that were open were usually not full. This was on weeknights; maybe they do better on weekends, but it looks like the big casinos may be pricing themselves right out of the market on table games.

[spyu]

I don't really frequent the smaller casinos, but I rotate between the Wynn, Venetian, and the Bellagio. Mathmatically the best game in town that I know of is the Bellagio double deck game. S17, DAS, Split up to four times including Aces, No Surrender, Double any two, dealer peeks, and the cards are dealt face up, everything else standard. But the minimum is $100 and sometimes higher during busy times. They also deal 1 1/2 decks which is as good as you'll find. Other double decks around town they deal about 3/4-1 deck before they shuffle and the rules aren't nearly as good. The thing about double deck is your bet spread doesn't have to be as wide, you get favorable situations more often and a count that has a high P.E. is of more use.

The second best game is at $50 min during slow times and usually $100. It's 6 deck w/ all the same rules as above except you include surrender. The penetration is fairly good. But unless you're playing as part of a team I don't think you'll be making a million anytime soon.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the reply,
in that case, how can there be such a thing as "pro" blackjack players, if the edge is so small?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why could there not be? Imagine if you had a "1% edge" relative to the initial money in the pot at hold'em. That's 1.5BB/100, and you can certainly live off of that, especially if you are playing relatively high stakes.

[Shaggy]

Most "Pro" blackjack players have other legal methods to gain a larger edge. Shuffle Tracking, Hole Carding to name a couple.

[Maddog121]

Not Vegas, but Tunica Goldstrike last Tuesday had a single deck game with the only negative rule being dealer must hit soft 17. Everything else was standard, DAS, double any two etc. The spread was $10 min to $1000 max. (BTW the 1-2 NL was wicked soft). I don't think I will be going to Vegas to gamble again. (Vegas has more periphery activity of course, but the games are better elsewhere.)