No Limit Texas Hold'em : preflop all-in with AK & AQ ?

RyoSaeba · #1 05-19-2007, 01:07 PM

Hi,

At the beginning of a tournament, I am not sure of the value of going allin pre-flop with AK and AQ. You have got only 6 cards which can help you, strongly, but only 6 cards. And you are underfavourite against pocket pairs. But the reward can be worth of it. How do you think ? What about calling allin with AK & AQ at the beginning of a tournament ? If noone is in the pot ? If there is some limpers ? If there is a raiser ?

Same question about cash game. I do not think that it is correct to go allin preflop with AK & AQ. I mean, if you raise allin, you will be only called by AA, KK, QQ... If someone raise and you reraise him allin, he might fold if he does not have a premium hand and all you would win is the pot (or lose your stack if he has a better hand)... If someone goes allin after your raise or before you play, this is sure your opponent has a strong hand...

What do you think ?

phydaux · #2 05-19-2007, 02:19 PM

Well, think it through.

In the early stages of the tournament the blinds are low. That means there will only be a small amount of money in the pot. You're going all-in, putting your entire stack at risk, to win a small amount of money. That risk:reward ratio isn't very attractive.

Also, AK & AQ are vulnerable hands. Even pocket twos will win over AK & AQ more than 50% of the time.

In the final analysis, when the stacks are large relative to the blinds, you are far better off playing poker than playing shove.

lucky_mf · #3 05-19-2007, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Same question about cash game. I do not think that it is correct to go allin preflop with AK & AQ. I mean, if you raise allin, you will be only called by AA, KK, QQ... If someone raise and you reraise him allin, he might fold if he does not have a premium hand and all you would win is the pot (or lose your stack if he has a better hand)... If someone goes allin after your raise or before you play, this is sure your opponent has a strong hand...

What do you think ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends. If you play higher limit NL games (above $1/2) there is are a lot of players that will 3-bet in position with hands like 88+, AJ, AQ, and AJ (or even trash). For example (stacks of $600 in a $3/6 game). I open for $24 from MP and the player on the button (a chronic 3-better) raises to $80. I might go ahead and push rather than just call and have to play AK out of position. Of course he is going to call with AA and KK (and probably QQ also), but these hands that have me crushed are a small part of his 3-betting range (especially on the button versus a MP or CO raise). AQ can cause problems because you are a huge dog to AK and QQ and most 3-betters will call a 4-bet push with AK or QQ in this situation. Still - I sometimes push AQ against a chronic 3-better out of position.

Lucky

lucky_mf · #4 05-19-2007, 02:51 PM

A couple from yesterday where I probably would of called a 5-bet push (getting nearly 3-1). The villain in both these hands is the same guy and a chronic 3-bettor. You fold a lot (and tighten up your raising range), but the more you fold the more a guy like this is going to keep 3-betting your openers. Sooner or later have to take a stand.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $485.40
Hero: $869.10
Button: $690.30
SB: $1084.20
BB: $688.98

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises to $24, Button raises to $81, 2 folds, Hero raises to $274, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $193 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $171

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $667.70
Hero: $604.85
CO: $1228.85
Button: $1304.35
SB: $950.80
BB: $228

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises to $24, CO folds, Button raises to $81, 2 folds, Hero raises to $294, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $213 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $171

Gigglegirl · #5 05-19-2007, 03:15 PM

Wow, sexy poker.
BTW, well done to you for coming down from your lofty limits to educate beginners. Nice 'giving back'.

Lucky, are you forced to call a shove in both of those spots?
If I've got it right, you would need to pay $335 to win a pot of $964 in the 1st.
And you've already half your stack in the 2nd?
And are you happy about it, particularly the 1st one?

RyoSaeba · #6 05-19-2007, 03:35 PM

Ok Phydaux and lucky, I got your point of view. This is mainly what I was thinking but with my lack of experience I could not figure it at 100%

Limit where I do play in live is 2/2 full ring and NL5 online. The live game is far looser than online 1/2.

lucky_mf · #7 05-19-2007, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, sexy poker.
BTW, well done to you for coming down from your lofty limits to educate beginners. Nice 'giving back'.

Lucky, are you forced to call a shove in both of those spots?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not forced to. Usually he will be shoving with AA, KK, AK, QQ, and JJ (maybe). You roughly a 3-1 dog to AK and KK and a little bit better w.r.t. with QQ and JJ so it is usually not a bad mistake (if a mistake at all) to call. You do end up looking like a huge donkey getting it all in with AJ versus AA though. What you count on is the pots that you pick up when he folds to the 4-bet to cover your losses when you get it in as a 3-1 dog. If he has a wide 3-betting range this should not be an issue because he will need to lay down his hand much of the time. You can't do this against a typical player with a narrow 3-betting range.

The sequence of events usually goes something like this: I raise an ok hand from MP (JTs, KQo, KJs, ect) and get 3-bet. He 3-bets my openers a few more times and I fold. Now I know I have a light 3-bettor on my left. The first thing I do is tighten up my range - no more raising KJ or KT. When I raise I want a hand I can go to battle with. So I pick up a good ace or a good pair (AJ+,TT+) and he does it again. He already knows I have no issues folding to the 3-bet, so now when I 4-bet it carries some weight. He is going to have to have a pretty good hand to 5-bet push (he will never call in my experience).

There is some more stuff on combating light 3-betting here (written by CTS) http://cts687.livejournal.com/

It talks about calling, versus 4-betting, versus 4-bet shoving.

Lucky

RyoSaeba · #8 05-19-2007, 05:06 PM

So, you test your opponents to farm some informations about the way they play betting.

This is something I have never thought of, and new ideas begin to emerge from my head.

But it only works in a long session where players remain the same.

What is your poker story lucky ?

lucky_mf · #9 05-19-2007, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, you test your opponents to farm some informations about the way they play betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just observe the way they play in response to the way that you play (you should know what sort of image your are projecting). Nobody good is going to 3-bet a guy with a PFR% of 5 light. But when you open raise a lot good players will start to play back, especially with position. If you read the CTS blog he talks about a player "being competent enough to 3-bet him light."

[ QUOTE ]
But it only works in a long session where players remain the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play a decent amount you are usually going to be sitting with people that you have played with before. I have PT stats on 70-90% of the players at the levels I play at any given point in time.

My poker story is long and boring.

Lucky

skelm · #10 05-20-2007, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A couple from yesterday where I probably would of called a 5-bet push (getting nearly 3-1). The villain in both these hands is the same guy and a chronic 3-bettor. You fold a lot (and tighten up your raising range), but the more you fold the more a guy like this is going to keep 3-betting your openers. Sooner or later have to take a stand.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $485.40
Hero: $869.10
Button: $690.30
SB: $1084.20
BB: $688.98

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises to $24, Button raises to $81, 2 folds, Hero raises to $274, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $193 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $171

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $3/$6
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $667.70
Hero: $604.85
CO: $1228.85
Button: $1304.35
SB: $950.80
BB: $228

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises to $24, CO folds, Button raises to $81, 2 folds, Hero raises to $294, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $213 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $171

[/ QUOTE ]

Aiming to move up a limit myself eventually and a bit curious where these betting amounts come from? Can you walk me through this a bit clearer (it would help me get on the right track)?