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  #11  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:47 PM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

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he explains that you should fold some of the hands that would show a very small profit so that you can profit more on your other hands. I agree with this and think it's precisely the opposite from what you are saying.

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Interesting. I haven't read that book but it seems to me this is also the opposite of what Stox recommends in his book as well.
If it has any amount of EV at all then he typically advocates playing it/calling down with it.
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  #12  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:53 PM
PJS PJS is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he explains that you should fold some of the hands that would show a very small profit so that you can profit more on your other hands. I agree with this and think it's precisely the opposite from what you are saying.

[/ QUOTE ]


Interesting. I haven't read that book but it seems to me this is also the opposite of what Stox recommends in his book as well.
If it has any amount of EV at all then he typically advocates playing it/calling down with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be honest, I'm a bit confused on this one. I'd appreciate it if Mason (or someone who can clarify this) could take the time to provide an example where this would apply.

PJS
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  #13  
Old 11-25-2007, 04:13 PM
uDevil uDevil is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

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I've seen some stuff recently where the author (not Tanebaum) advocates an illusion of action but then proceeds to give many plays that are predicated on a tight image.

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Interesting. Although I don't expect you to say, I'd guess that the author you refer to is Dave Fromm and that this is a possible reason for dumping the Fromm/Zee book.

This point of strategy seems like one that needs clarification (meaning, "I don't get it"). However, if (hypothetically) Fromm/Zee and (possibly) Tannenbaum have failed to do that to your satisfaction, I'm not hopeful.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2007, 04:27 PM
smbruin22 smbruin22 is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. I haven't read that book but it seems to me this is also the opposite of what Stox recommends in his book as well.
If it has any amount of EV at all then he typically advocates playing it/calling down with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree.. how is more folding an "illusion of action"??.. maybe the author can weigh in as i won't be surprised if his ideas have been distorted here.
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2007, 04:59 PM
Heisenb3rg Heisenb3rg is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

IMO skalasnky/malmuths advice about having a tight image in limit holdem is only correct under certain (most?) game conditions.
There is no way its true in all game conditions.

If the pots are frequently multiway and large preflop and your opponents will allow your tight image to manipulate and control the potsize postflop (by turning people passive to your raises).. as well as succesfully semibluff occasionally. A tight image IMO is superior to a loose image.

However, if a full ring game is playing extremly loose postflop, a tight image wont allow you to take down more pots than a loose image, so getting people to give you excess action is more important.
Although, Im not sure how the increased ability to "protect your hand" with a tight image comes into play..

In shorthanded games, winning pots due to bluff raising is not nearly as rewarding. People showdown too much, and the pots are much smaller.
The opportunity to win pots with the "first right to bluff" as well as winning more bets when you have hand are the largest source of value.

A loose agressive image both gets you more action (when you both have a hand), as well as discourages your opponents to bluff raise you without a good draw(for they fear the bluff-reraise). Your range is weak a good % of the time in shorthanded games, so people taking a lot of shots at you can be very difficult to play against.
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2007, 05:38 PM
Mason Malmuth Mason Malmuth is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]
However, if a full ring game is playing extremly loose postflop, a tight image wont allow you to take down more pots than a loose image, so getting people to give you excess action is more important.


[/ QUOTE ]

No. You might get free cards when you raise. Your bets may not be raised when they should be. Your opponents may check to you when they should bet. They may play more straight forward against you than they might someone else. And so on.

Best wishes,
Mason
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  #17  
Old 11-25-2007, 07:41 PM
Heisenb3rg Heisenb3rg is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

sorry, I didnt explain my self properly.
In the first pargraph when I said "manipulate the potsize" I meant, manipulate your opponents. Things like bet/folding in big pots (because you know they know you have a good hand and wont be raising thin on you), free cards, free showdown raises etc..

By loose games, I meant loose/agressive games. In games where they dont get passive to your raises (crazy games) BUT will go even more crazy if you tick them off.

Now that I think of it though, these games are fairly rare..
Plus will be extremly profitable anyways.

Im also biased in my outlook bceause I play primarily tough shorthanded games, where Im fully confident that a LAGier image is profitable for someone who is playing a game primarily based around thin value betting.
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  #18  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:46 PM
jimitilt jimitilt is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

I am about two thirds thru the book and the "Illusion of Action" idea Barry refers to is just a new name for ideas that have been written about for years. Namely that certain hands can be played differently depending on position and number of players; plays that might seem strange to a lesser experienced player. one example he gave is to three bet from the cutoff with Q9s against a tight, losing frustrated player who had raised from his right. Barry hit a 9 on fourth street and won a pot and showing the hand got other players to view him as foolish and lucky. He points out that isolating a predictable player in position will allow him to win that pot almost all the time but creates the illusion of action for players who don't understand how sophisticated the play really is. He also talks about making other "situational" raises like raising with JT suited once 4 or more players are in or raising with a small pair once 5 or more players are in to tie those players to the pot with overcards when you hit your sets. Nothing really new except the terminology-"Illusion of Action" I think the book is good but nothing groundbreaking.
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  #19  
Old 11-25-2007, 10:13 PM
fraac fraac is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, if a full ring game is playing extremly loose postflop, a tight image wont allow you to take down more pots than a loose image, so getting people to give you excess action is more important.


[/ QUOTE ]
No. You might get free cards when you raise. Your bets may not be raised when they should be. Your opponents may check to you when they should bet. They may play more straight forward against you than they might someone else. And so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the book or this thread, and I don't play much poker, but I'm full of opinions and here's one: Mason, your idea of high limit poker is outdated. You expect to make most of your money from moves and otherwise break even, when today's players expect to tread water with moves and get paid off with real hands.
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  #20  
Old 11-25-2007, 10:41 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: Review, Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy (Tanenbaum)

[ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the book or this thread, and I don't play much poker, but I'm full of opinions and here's one: Mason, your idea of high limit poker is outdated. You expect to make most of your money from moves and otherwise break even, when today's players expect to tread water with moves and get paid off with real hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow.
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