i check and see, but do i like what i saw?

[bravos1]

Pretty sure I'd have never even seen the turn.

Are you good enough here 10% of the time including draws on the turn? Not really sure. Tag dude was saying he could beat you on the flop or had a flush draw. Loose/Weak leads flop and calls a raise AND DONKS again on turn when most draws got there. Pretty sure both have you crushed.

So, I:
1. fold flop when 2 back
2. fold turn even getting 10:1 (weird huh)cuz you are like never good and all of your outs are seriously tainted or non-existent.

[Aaron W.]

Yeah... the point of the check and see line is usually to get out of the hand if the action is bad. If you bet and it's raised, you have to call because of pot odds, but if you check and it's two bets to you, you can get out because the odds aren't there.

What is your hand range for taggish guy when he raises a donk and two calls?

[tyler_cracker]

hmmm.

i was discussing this hand with TT and Cactus Jack after it happened. Jack was the button in this hand and tanked and folded J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the flop. TT said that Jack's fold was too weak because there are so many draws that Taggish can be raising on this board.

to answer aaron's question, i think taggish's range is something like KJ-J9 (AJ raises pf), QJs-J8s (KJs raises pf), maybe J7s, OESDs, several pair+gutshot combos, and many combos of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. i'm not in terrible shape against this range.

the two callers in the middle were super loose and while their hands have outs and decrease my equity, they can easily have gutshots, bottom pair, 44, and other junk.

esther's lead is troubling because there are few worse Js (and her lead here is typical of a TP-type hand).

still, i do not fear a 3bet behind me from anyone and the pot is getting big, so i want to see what develops on the turn.

once i get to the turn, i already said what i was thinking: sometimes i can improve to the best hand, and the pot is providing pretty large overlay for that to happen.

bona, the river decision was very boring, but may skew responses, so i omit it for now.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
i was discussing this hand with TT and Cactus Jack after it happened. Jack was the button in this hand and tanked and folded J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the flop. TT said that Jack's fold was too weak because there are so many draws that Taggish can be raising on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised Jack didn't raise preflop for value against this field. But anyway, given that Jack tanked, you should have spent that time trying to put him on a hand, as there aren't too many hands that should be tanking and folding. Flush draws should only tank to wonder whether they should be 3-betting or coldcalling (and even then, I'm not sure how long that decision would take -- 3-betting probably freezes the action against this passive crowd and lets hero have full control on the turn). Naked middle pair/bottom should be folding pretty quickly. T8 or QT may have to think for a bit to decide that it really has about 6-7 outs and can gamble with the expected calls from the bettor/callers. Admittedly, this could also be some post-play analysis already knowing that he has a weak jack, but it's worth thinking about what your thinking opponent is thinking about when he's thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
esther's lead is troubling because there are few worse Js (and her lead here is typical of a TP-type hand).

still, i do not fear a 3bet behind me from anyone and the pot is getting big, so i want to see what develops on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't like it. If there had been a raise preflop, the pot would be big enough to warrant a call, but I just think there's not enough worth chasing here such a weak hand here with a weakish player donking and a taggish player raising.

Coldcalling JTs OTB with the same action is a little better because of position and the two card BDFD, and I might *barely* be convinced to make that coldcall. With your BDFD, you have to go through a 3-flush to get there and then you're OOP with the 4th nut one card flush and can't do a whole lot with it.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
my first plan was to c/r a late position bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this, too bad it didn't work out that way.

[ QUOTE ]
when that didn't work, my new plan was to coldcall and donk a safe turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same thing that makes your first plan sexy, makes this plan retarded. You're hoping for the TAG to bet what appears to be an orphan pot so that you can face the loose-weak-passive players with two and get them to fold, but the way it worked out YOU'RE the one facing two and without a whole lot of equity on a multi-coordinated board in a family pot. Fold.

As played, c/f the turn. Loose-weak players don't bluff-donk scare cards.

(The other option on the flop is to go ahead and c/r, anyway, if you think the TAG is pumping a draw. If esther is really weak, she's going to decide that somebody else's draw is better than hers and fold. I want to be pretty solid in my reads, tho.)

[*TT*]

Tyler - I could be wrong but I recall the hand was Cactus Jack in the CO who limped (boo!) and the button raised pre-flop. Big pot. The Tag was to Cactus Jack's immediate right.

a few notes -

1) I think Cactus Jack sound have raised pre-flop. He also should have called the flop bet with the plan of raising a safe turn card. His fold was weak, his decision was based on projecting a range rather than calculating a range.

2) I know Esther because I have played with her 2x before when sitting in smaller games with friends/coaching. She is weak and plays too many hands, but actually plays kind of well post flop - she isnt a total idiot. She plays the 4/8 game every day of her life now, its a source of income for her. Esther's range is as low as J5s and although she is weak I can totally see her betting multi-way with a flush draw or an OESD.

3) If the Tag is really a Tag then we should be discounting a lot of the B-way J hands. KJs, AJs, AJo, and probably KJo would all be raised pre-flop. Most guys at a 4/8 Vegas wouldn't raise QJs but they would limp in with QJo here. J9 is of course a fear and JT is a chop. There are far more hands he would raise here with to gain a free card & the button (especially with the A kicker) such as AhXh, QT, T8, etc etc etc.


As for Tyler's play if there was no raise pre-flop then I agree its closer to a fold on the flop. If the pot is large then we have to reconsider the line because he has great backdoor possibilities. I expect a lot of cards to kill his decision on the turn but if the pot is 18:2 SB immediate but likely 21:2 to him and Esther isn't going to pump this pot therefore its worth seeing another card for 2 bets.

Interesting hand Tyler!

[Aaron W.]

Out of curiosity, where was this game and what were the stakes?

[tyler_cracker]

all,

some good comments from everyone. nice work.


tt,

you're going to have to trust me on the action in the hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

i probably should have mentioned a few posts ago that my discussion of the hand with tt was verbal and thus subject to some confusion (exactly how big the pot was, etc.).


aaron,

4/8 at Wynn.

interesting point on thinking about what the thinking opponent is thinking about.

i agree that having position and a stronger bdfd pushes this close decision towards a call rather than a fold.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
tt,

you're going to have to trust me on the action in the hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I do! As you pointed out last night it was rather confusing - we have to work on CJ's ability to communicate hand action, thats why I provided answers if the post was raised, as well as if the pot was not - this hand was a good example of how to adjust based on pot size when you have a tough decision.

[Cactus Jack]

Bite me. I related it exactly as Tyler has it. I was OTB with JTs with 3 limpers. Raise? Do I have that much equity? Ok, I can see raising it for value, and now I will.

On the flop, I had TP with a pretty marginal kicker. Raisor in the CO easily could have me outkicked as KJ and QJ are both in his hand range, without raising, which I believe he may or may not do PF. AJ might even be a call rather than a raise for him. He's TAG for THIS GAME, but not what we'd call a TAG, necessarily. He doesn't play every hand and the hands he's played, he's played pretty aggro, esp post-flop.

I was planning on raising the flop, but when he raised in front of me, I had to give him credit for the possibility of having me beat and drawing very thin. Calling 2 cold didn't seem a wise investment here, and so I folded.


CJ