Why can't I believe? (is it a genetic predisposition?) - Page 2

AWoodside · #11 10-24-2007, 06:08 PM

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No, I don't worry about that. If there was an inborn inability there are still plenty of others around showing they have the ability.

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But if you grant that there are some people that are incapable of believing, how does this jive with things like heaven/hell/free-will/etc. Do you take a Calvin-esque position and conclude that there are a set of chosen people (the ones that do, in fact, have the ability to believe) that can make it to heaven, and a set of people that are pre-destined for hell?

Or are you a milder form of Christian that doesn't actually think you have to accept Jesus in order to receive salvation?

vhawk01 · #12 10-24-2007, 06:13 PM

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No, I don't worry about that. If there was an inborn inability there are still plenty of others around showing they have the ability.

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If I simply CANNOT believe in God, I certainly cannot accept Jesus, and therefore I will go to Hell. But I cannot go to Hell because that is grossly unjust. What could I have done? I had no free-will, I was simply born INCAPABLE of having faith. Much like people with Tay-Sachs are born incapable of breaking down gangliosides. If breaking down gangliosides was instrumental in getting to Heaven, how could you argue that it is just to keep the Tay-Sachs sufferers out?

drzen · #13 10-24-2007, 09:21 PM

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No, I don't worry about that. If there was an inborn inability there are still plenty of others around showing they have the ability.

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I think you're missing the (excellent) point.

You say that Jesus came for *all*, right? He even harrowed Hell because he came for all.

But if you have been *created* unable to believe, God cannot have sent Jesus for all, because some are created unable to accept the covenant that you accept.

drzen · #14 10-24-2007, 10:04 PM

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No, I don't worry about that. If there was an inborn inability there are still plenty of others around showing they have the ability.

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If I simply CANNOT believe in God, I certainly cannot accept Jesus, and therefore I will go to Hell. But I cannot go to Hell because that is grossly unjust. What could I have done? I had no free-will, I was simply born INCAPABLE of having faith. Much like people with Tay-Sachs are born incapable of breaking down gangliosides. If breaking down gangliosides was instrumental in getting to Heaven, how could you argue that it is just to keep the Tay-Sachs sufferers out?

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Okay, strike my saying that you made an excellent point, because even though it was, you made it for the wrong reasons. God doesn't have to be "just". He cannot be measured; he is his own measure.

Subfallen · #15 10-24-2007, 11:02 PM

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Supposing I wanted the ability to believe in a a God but just didn't have it in me to fulfil such a longing; am I a lesser or richer person than somebody who can?

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You've got it backwards. Authentic religious belief is NOT the possession of some transcendent awareness or heightened consciousness. It's more like the absence of self. ("For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2) It's looking in the mirror and seeing nothing but a glaring light, empty and untouchable. It's a reverse abyss, a hopelessly small truth squeezed into your head that pushes everything else out.

Why would you want that? It's much better to be human---if you can.

Some people can't.

vhawk01 · #16 10-25-2007, 01:46 AM

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No, I don't worry about that. If there was an inborn inability there are still plenty of others around showing they have the ability.

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If I simply CANNOT believe in God, I certainly cannot accept Jesus, and therefore I will go to Hell. But I cannot go to Hell because that is grossly unjust. What could I have done? I had no free-will, I was simply born INCAPABLE of having faith. Much like people with Tay-Sachs are born incapable of breaking down gangliosides. If breaking down gangliosides was instrumental in getting to Heaven, how could you argue that it is just to keep the Tay-Sachs sufferers out?

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Okay, strike my saying that you made an excellent point, because even though it was, you made it for the wrong reasons. God doesn't have to be "just". He cannot be measured; he is his own measure.

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He must be just because he claims to be just. If he "is his own measure" than it is meaningless for him to claim he is just. Are you calling God a liar?

Well anyways, thats not really the point. As you said he claims he gave us free will, and since I'm informed that the only RELEVANT aspect of will that determines its freedom is either the ability to choose Jesus or the ability to choose evil, finding out I was completely unable to choose Jesus is a pretty big strike against free will. Apparently its less important that I be able to choose to breathe underwater or that those with Tay Sachs are free to choose to metabolize gangliosides.

yukoncpa · #17 10-25-2007, 01:59 AM

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He must be just because he claims to be just.

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Hi Vhawk,

Are you sure that God claims to be just? I'm not doubting you, I just certainly don't believe that he is just, so I'm surprised that he even bothers to make the claim. Can you point out where he claims to be just?

He is clearly unjust here, and perhaps, oh, 100 other places:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. -- Genesis 3:16

I'm just curious if there is any bible passage where God says he is just. It seems like from my memory, this is a claim he makes, but I can't find it.

Thanks

vhawk01 · #18 10-25-2007, 02:16 AM

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He must be just because he claims to be just.

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Hi Vhawk,

Are you sure that God claims to be just? I'm not doubting you, I just certainly don't believe that he is just, so I'm surprised that he even bothers to make the claim. Can you point out where he claims to be just?

He is clearly unjust here, and perhaps, oh, 100 other places:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. -- Genesis 3:16

I'm just curious if there is any bible passage where God says he is just. It seems like from my memory, this is a claim he makes, but I can't find it.

Thanks

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This was a quick Google search:

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Isasah 45:18. For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. 19. ... I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 21. ... there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. NKJV

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I'm no Biblical scholar, I'm certain I hear people claiming God to be just all the time, and that passage sure seems to spell it out. I could search more if someone objects to that.

EDIT: This too:
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Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

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yukoncpa · #19 10-25-2007, 02:20 AM

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This was a quick Google search:

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Isasah 45:18. For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other. 19. ... I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 21. ... there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. NKJV

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I'm no Biblical scholar, I'm certain I hear people claiming God to be just all the time, and that passage sure seems to spell it out. I could search more if someone objects to that.

[/ QUOTE ] You answered my question to my own satisfaction. I should have done a google search myself. Instead I was looking through the hard copy annotated bible that I have. Thanks for doing that, I was lazy, actually not lazy, but not looking in the right place.

zasterguava · #20 10-25-2007, 02:38 AM

Some interesting responses. I would specifically be interested in hearing some more answers relating to the question "if such a gene exists; would you wish it upon your children?". I guess you have to ask yourself which is the recipe for a richer person, but, also the one that will give your child the easiest life and fulfilment. When the majority of people have faith and society is shaped to accomodate their faith; do you want your child to be different and not experience the positive aspects of organised religion such as community, and, whether false or not, the belief in an afterlife?