When should the dealer muck folded hands at showdown?

[redfisher]

2/5 NL game. I'm holding AK and raise to 20. 2 callers behind me + the BB. Board is all rags, no flush but some odd straights are possible. Action is checked down on all streets.

At showdown, I turn up my AK first as the last aggressive actor (that's the house rule). The two players behind me table AQ and some middle connectors that missed. The big blind folds his hand face down. Middle connectors guy goes through some discussion about did I make a pair. He figures out that he didn't. During this discussion, the BB wakes up and realizes he may have made a pair and grabs his hand back. He does have a pair, he wins.

Should the dealer have mucked this hand as soon as it hit the table facedown? This wasn't an instagrab situation. The BBs cards were out there for at least 5-10 seconds.

Should the dealer wait until it is BB's turn to show down before mucking his hand as he did?

[fraserbrown]

If he pushed them forward face down they are in the muck, let him learn a lesson.

[Taso]

I think its time we get a sticky for this forum that contains the words

"The muck does not have magical properties. If the cards are easily identifiable, they can be returned to the player in order to preserve the best interests of the game."

[redfisher]

Did you read my post? The cards were not in the muck. They were folded. They lay facedown for a longer than usual time. The BB retrieved and played them. I have no problem with the BB. I would like to know when the dealer should have mucked them. In a headsup situation, these cards don't play because the entire deck would have been in the shuffler before the BB decided to retrieve them.

[bav]

Yes, the dealer is supposed to pull the mucks in as soon as they hit the table. That avoids this problem. I've lost hands several times because of this. Last time it happened to me I could see it coming in slow motion. Dealer left all the cards and the board out there, collected the pot, shoved it toward me, and I saw the other player suddenly get a "wait a fricken' minute" look on his face. I tell the dealer quietly "please muck his hand now" and the dealer says "what?!?" I reiterate "T A K E H I S C A R D S ! !" "oh... yeah, ok" and as the dealer reaches for the cards the player grabs them and flips 'em over. sigh. I gave up the pot without a fight. Nobody was table talking and the other player realized on his own that he had folded the winner, but the floor later said if he'd been called over he still woulda ruled in my favor because so much time had transpired. He wasn't sure what the statute of limitations should be, but figured if there was enough time for the dealer to pull the pot together and shove it and then reach to collect the cards, it was too late and the other player shouldn't get to profit because the dealer didn't follow procedures and bury his cards immediately.

Your case is a bit fuzzier than fraser's earlier post. In his case, someone else told the mucker she had folded a winner and actually even pulled the cards back on behalf of the mucker. That's not even close. This one... well... I claim the table talk is clearly what helped the guy realize he had the winner so no, if asked to rule I probably wouldn't let him take back his mucked cards. But it's near that fuzzy "how much time has passed, how much table talk has happened" line.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Dealer should always muck folded hands instantly. There is no other acceptable procedure.

[pfapfap]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer should always muck folded hands instantly. There is no other acceptable procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]QFMFT

Sadly, what's "supposed" to be is rarely what "is". You do yourself a service not to entertain righteous anger when "supposed" doesn't happen. And while in this case it really sucks, not like the worst hand won the pot or anything.

Me, I turbomuck. Partially because of this, partially to avoid IWTSTH. I have a good sense of who's folding a true loser and who may be a bit drunk or confused, so I'm especially cognizant of dangerous boards and muck those potentential hands even more quickly.

Before pushing a pot, I muck ALL other hands. Even if the guy is saying "you got it, he wins, push him the pot." Sorry, give me your cards, then I'll push to the winner. I want a clean board, and that includes the only player with cards receiving the pot.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer should always muck folded hands instantly. There is no other acceptable procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a perfect world, sure. But let's look at this from the dealer's perspective:

First player turns up AK. Dealer is trying to figure out how the hell AK fits with this board. It doesn't, of course, but the dealer has to take a couple of seconds to come to this realization.

Now the next two players have turned up AQ. Well, since they didn't muck them, they must think they can beat AK. Dealer has to check the board again before he can be sure that the AQ's are no good.

Player D's cards have been lying there face down ever since the AK was tabled. If the dealer had nothing better to do, he would've mucked them by now. Unfortunately, he's been kept busy by a couple of wild goose chases.

And those are just the delays that we know about. There's also a good chance that while he was trying to read all these hands, a player who had no cards was asking him how late the buffet stays open; another player asks how big the jackpot is; and a chip-runner is tapping him on the shoulder to see if he's the one who called for a fill. You, as a player, don't notice these trivial things, but they happen. A lot.

Sorry you lost, OP. Too bad nobody killed the better hand for you.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

That's about the size of it all. But the dealer should muck cards tossed in face down before reading the face up hands. I'm never tooooo upset when the best hand wins tho, whatever the reason :-)

[Mr Rick]

What bothers me about these situations isn't that the best hand won - but how arbitrary the procedures for mucking hands are. And also, that a player who has mucked their hand can be influenced by table talk to reconsider (which borders on violating the one player to a hand rule)

I believe that a discarded hand should be mucked immediately so that it is irretrievable. Regardless of whether or not the dealer is in the middle of reading hands that have already been turned over or not.

Anything else becomes unfair to all players. If a particular dealer arbitrarily gives some players more time to reconsider their "muck" for whatever reason, it is clearly unfair to thise players who didn't receive that extra time or who received less time. It is particularly unfair, if the dealer's actions are not arbitrary (i.e., based on where the players are sitting, who they like, their perception that a player has the winning hand, etc.)