checkraised on the river by roc

[mike l.]

40-80 live, great games. two hands. roc for those who dont know him is a cool guy. he recently won $1.3 mil playing poker and in the pit in vegas and then lost all of it and is now back playing 20 and 40 at oceans. he's had a lot of experience playing very big games at commerce. he's a lag tag, way heavy on the lag most of the time. he's tricky and smart, but also reckless. his game heavily ranges from super good to terrible. ive played a fair amount of heads up and shorthanded with roc, i like playing against him, like my spot against him, but it's a bit like sky diving or shark fishing or unprotected sex or lighting farts on fire: fun but dangerous.

anyway one last thing to note is roc raises the river more than any other player in the game. he raises with one pair, raises on bluffs, and raises with the nuts. maybe that means i should just call in both cases below. or does it?

hand 1: 4 handed, he's directly on my right thank god. he raises, i 3 bet TT, he 4 bets, i call.

the flop is J83. he bets, i just call.

the turn is a 2. he bets, i call.

the river is a 9. he checks, i bet, he checkraises...

hand 2: full game, huge fish limps, i limp w/ 33 in mp, someone limps behind me, roc completes in the sb, bb checks.

flop is 442 rainbow. roc bets, bb fish calls, next fish calls, i call, button folds.

turn is an 8. roc bets, both fish fold, i call.

river is a Q. roc checks, i bet, he checkraises...

[Clarkmeister]

I'd just call in Hand 1.

Hand 2 I like a turn raise.

[mike l.]

i definitely took debatable passive routes on the flop and turn in both hands.

[ssmallz]

More info is needed. Did hand 2 happen before or after hand 1? What you did in hand 1 might be influence roc's play in hand 2 but you can't really tell us what happened in one hand w/out spoiling the post so I think you should have turned this into 2 different threads. Anyways....

Against a guy like this you've gotta get to showdown, if you're contemplating folding to a c/r on the river then you shouldnt be betting.

Hand 2: I like a check behind in hand 2. Roc bet into the field on the turn after getting called in a bunch of place on the flop. Do you think he would do that with a naked AK? another point to make is that he might not call w/a naked ak there. Against someone that laggy, I dont think you'll get to value bet 33 too often and you'll be put into tough spots like this more often than you like. If you want to get 2 bb's outta him I'd rather raise the turn for a free sd. I'm gonna venture a guess and say that you don't feel comfortable folding to a 3 bet or counting on him to check the river. Against this player so I like just calling the turn and checking behind the river.

Hand 1: This is a tougher hand to play b/c he will certainly call w/ak on the river and he's played the hand like AK, OTOH, against a player like this you can't fold to a c/r so you're in a tough spot. I'd prolly bet/call here and hope he's bluffing.

[gaming_mouse]

What hands in his range is he paying off in Hand 1? Ie, just how laggy are these 4 bets PF? My feeling is that, especially if the c/r puts you in such a tough spot, it is better to check behind. Unless he bluff raises way too much, in which case just bet call and be done with it.

I like clark's turn raise suggestion in Hand 2. As played, I guess you have to bet because he is paying off any ace? Again, I feel my same comment applies here too though. But maybe this is an easier bet call.

[Clarkmeister]

Hand 1 is closer to a 3-bet than a fold IMO.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 is closer to a 3-bet than a fold IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was recommending a check behind, not a fold, but I guess your point still applies. Also, that's why asked about his PF capping range. What hands does he cap with, c/raise with, and call a 3bet with that we beat?

[surfdoc]

Your read on Roc is very solid. I will just add the obvious which is that he has played a ton of live HE, is very experienced, and reads hands pretty well. He will use this info to make reads and stick with them which, along with being overly tricky and reckless, can sometimes get him in trouble and is likely the reason he is once again playing Oceans 20.

I would beat him into the pot with hand 1. He will usually have you beat but not enough for a fold. He may think as simply as "he didnt raise the flop or the turn so he doesn't have a J. Therefore my A9s is the nuts." We all know that is in his capping range as well and the possiblity of him having 100% air.

Hand 2 is tougher. I think knowing that you get CRd makes it tougher to give advice but I really don't like a river bet unless you are doing it specifically so he can bluffraise you. Your hand is pretty easy to read and he won't pay off with worse. It is not like you had some draw that missed and he now has to call.

Scott, there is no way Roc has Ak or two big cards based on the preflop action. He is raising that up every time and if he didn't then he wouldn't come firing out into a field of fish with A high.

[HOWMANY]

The thing about both the hands is that your hand looks like something showdown bound. In the first one he can have worse hands to c/r something that is showdown bound for value. The second one I have a hard time thinking of one. I'd do what you did in the first one but check behind the second one I'd hope. If I bet I'd probably call and hate it a lot more than the first one. Both hands you could raise on the flop but I don't really like raising on the turn against Roc that much for reasons that I'm not really sure of. Just finished 15 hour session of brutality so sorry that reply is in downie form with bad grammar.

also random sidenote, I feel like Roc is playing way better postflop than he was 6 months or so ago but worse preflop.

[private joker]

I don't understand the river bet in Hand 2. Is his image of you so bad that he'll call you with a 2 or A-high/K-high and expect it to be good often enough? He must know you know he's paying you off, so how does he expect you to bother bluffing him?