bet dark, check dark

[MitchL]

[ QUOTE ]
I think howmany's game might have a hole in it if you think this play is profitable. His raising range on that rainbow flop should include lots of Ax hands, a few 3x hands and PPs, and not all that much else. Calling to induce turn/river bluffs is a played-out, transparent line, so I'd hope he'd raise top pair there a good portion of the time.

If howmany's game doesn't have this hole then he just owned you bad cuz most of his range is top pair and yeah right he's gonna fold that.

[/ QUOTE ]

V, your reasoning works well against decent players who wont give a flop raise w/ an ace on board much credit and will call down, but against a good player a big street bluff w/ air is in order and though it may look spewy it can work against thinking opponents and when it doesnt it is good meta-game. Against a super tricky opponent I will always just take the passive line, bc 1 of 2 things will happen: 1. they will fold for cheap or 2. I will be put in a bad spot and might make a bad laydown.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
the instinctual standard play for almost all players when they flop an A on that flop in this sort of short scenario is to just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but the best players fight that urge and raise so that you will spew multiple BBs later. I didn't realize this til recently.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how many is the button villain in this hand. we're 4 or 5 handed. he openraises from the cutoff or button and i 3 bet KJo from one of the blinds. he calls. heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think howmany's game might have a hole in it if you think this play is profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Under these game conditions, he has no business sitting down if he didn't ever take this line with banana's. Look at what mike's doing.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong--raising in Howmany's spot with air is just bad. And you have Mike's rebluff to prove it. Nobody folds a pair tto a flop raise there and {Ax,22+} makes up the vast majority of mike's range. 3-betting KJ from Mike's spot is terribly standard but still not a big enough part of his range to raise with T9s or whatever.

Edit: Really I should have said that if howmany doesn't have a rep for raising the flop with his good hands on these kinds of steal/resteal situations then he shouldn't be raising with air. If Mike knows he'll raise with a bad ace, for instance, then an occasional bluff with air is probably profitable.

[mike l.]

"the best players fight that urge and raise so that you will spew multiple BBs later. I didn't realize this til recently."

i know. that's what i do.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
the instinctual standard play for almost all players when they flop an A on that flop in this sort of short scenario is to just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise like any Ace here. Apparently I also raise Jc9c here. I think your not folding is probably the right play here because my range is basically set/Ace/napkins.

The hilarious part is that I thought you had a good hand this time and in the hand I had KQ I really thought I might have needed to put in a 4th bet on the turn. I can't believe how bad I read hands sometimes.

[Michael Davis]

"the instinctual standard play for almost all players when they flop an A on that flop in this sort of short scenario is to just call."

Maybe two years ago. Now everyone raises, especially on an A32 flop where there's very little they could just call with. And it's the best way to induce action since the mindwheels on your decent-playing opponents start spinning in overdrive.

-Michael

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
"the instinctual standard play for almost all players when they flop an A on that flop in this sort of short scenario is to just call."

Maybe two years ago. Now everyone raises, especially on an A32 flop where there's very little they could just call with. And it's the best way to induce action since the mindwheels on your decent-playing opponents start spinning in overdrive.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. In 30/60 online games I see this all the time. It may even be more common than calling, though not sure about that.

[mike l.]

i was never folding when you had KQ. your play was transparent.

[HOWMANY]

Sorry for ruining the thread about this hand but I thought the other one was a lot more interesting. I sort of want to make a new thread for it but everyone would just be like "wtf just c/f the river" or think I am on PCP for wanting to 4bet the turn.

Does my hand really have to be KQ/draw exactly? I'm not allowed to have a T or J with a 9-A on the turn? I think my hand actually looked surprisingly like a J on the river that was afraid of you making a good check behind with an overpair.

I might be misunderstanding your "never folding" and you mean never folding QJ? That of course is completely reasonable and folding would be awful. I took it to mean that if you had 87s that you would continue raising because I have to have KQ/straight draw exactly which I think is pretty bad because sometimes I make pairs even if I can't sing or dance.

Also Rambo is ending just as I wake up [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] What a tough beat.

[mike l.]

it seemed obvious to me you had KQ. i just didnt see you playing other hands like this. i dont think you would take that line with a pocket pair or something good that you flopped. i think you would bet out if you had a J. i think you should because i will check behind at least sometimes with hands like 66.