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  #21  
Old 04-18-2007, 10:04 PM
mike l. mike l. is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

think i should fold the flop? because if i should call then im only spending a sb more (immediately at least) to make the play..
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  #22  
Old 04-18-2007, 11:08 PM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

1.25bb/hour sounds about right. There's more game selection at 40-80 than 60-120, so I might shade the numbers to $105 and $145 or so.
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  #23  
Old 04-19-2007, 12:28 AM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

Andy care to share any empirical data? You must have a large sample size in those games. I don't have enough hours in either to be useful - for instance I am negative in the Commerce 40/80 lifetime LOL but beating the 60 for like $300/hr.

-DeathDonkey
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  #24  
Old 04-19-2007, 01:50 AM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

I don't play enough. I made over 2bb/hour two years ago when I ran great, less than 1bb/hour last year, but I played very little (maybe 12,000 hands) and earlier in the day when the games are tougher. And I don't practice very good game selection. I'll stay in a game with buddies and if I get the #1 or #9 seat. So my experience should be discounted.

BTW, seems like the 1-2 is virtually dead these days at Commerce. I know there's a tournament in Vegas, but the 60-120 is getting to be the popular game, probably to the detriment of the 1-2.
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  #25  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:45 AM
Michael Davis Michael Davis is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

IMO you do a lot better just by betting the flop. These guys respond to your flop bet much more predictably than your flop c/r- that is, they will probably raise your flop bet with a queen but just call with a diamond and maybe a small pair. Thus, you a) cost yourself less money to bluff and b) are able to be much more confident in your reads after the flop so that you know how good of a chance there is that your eventual followup turn bet is going to make you an extra bet when the river isn't a diamond.

Since I'm sucking at english right now, I'll try again: Essentially, if you bet the flop and are called, there's a real good chance you win by just betting if the board blanks off. But if you you checkraise, you may be committing to following through the river anyways with much less confidence about what your opponents might hold. You lose this bet much more often because your opponents will back down on the flop with a pair-type holding but will still calldown.

-Michael
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  #26  
Old 04-19-2007, 08:52 AM
mike l. mike l. is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

well said. i think youre right.
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  #27  
Old 04-19-2007, 12:12 PM
disjunction disjunction is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

When I first read the hand I thought you were the BB, the fish was the SB, and the good player was last to act for some reason. I liked the cr there.
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  #28  
Old 04-19-2007, 02:49 PM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Re: flop c/r

[ QUOTE ]
well said. i think youre right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is too. I donk bet in this situation, with such holdings often.
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  #29  
Old 04-19-2007, 06:17 PM
mike l. mike l. is offline
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Default final thoughts on why i like my play in this spot

something about this was different though. when faced with the option of betting the flop i felt my hand was too weak to bother and i loved my chances of getting the free card. when good player bet and fish called though i loved my chances of a weird squeeze play where good player folded a 4 or 3 on the turn and i bet until fish missed and folded. my flop c/r not only exhibits the sort of strength needed to make good player fold, but builds a pot to make my bluff more profitable and have to succeed less often. obviously when i hit the 5 on the turn that was good, but it changed the direction of the hand and turned my impending river bluff into a bluff catcher.
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