Is poker a serious sporting endeavor?

[redfisher]

As a former college basketball player I'm frequently bemused by many of the posts here regarding rules enforcement. In all serious sporting endeavors, getting over on the other guy/officials is just considered good play.

No second baseman tells the ump that he failed to touch the bag on a DP.

No basketball player tells the ref that the reason his opponent couldn't jump for a rebound was because he was standing on his foot.

There's holding on every play in football.

The best example I can come up with is from boxing. The referee always says at the beginning of the bout, "Obey my commands and protect yourself at all times." If you don't, you get clocked at the bell. If the ref doesn't judge it a late blow, you lose.

In every sport, superior knowledge of the rules is an advantage. You aren't considered a "nit" when you point out your opponent has made a play that is not legal. There is an assumption that the opponent is aware of the rules when he suits up.

Why aren't poker rules as cut and dried as rules for other games?

[Nsight7]

I think it is because most people don't view poker play as a sporting endeavor. After all, how many sports allow you to drink beer during competition?

[Rottersod]

Your post doesn't hold water. If you want to cheat go ahead and do so but don't come and say that cheating is good play. Golfers routinely call penalties on themselves for breaking a rule. Sometimes these cost them a lot of money and important ranking points that will help determine their future earnings.

Anyways poker is not a sport, it's a competition and for any competitive match to have real meaning there must be rules and both sides should play by them.

Why aren't poker rules cut and dried? Because poker is an evolving game and not a staid league where players are told when to show up, what to wear, and on which days they play.

[redfisher]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post doesn't hold water. If you want to cheat go ahead and do so but don't come and say that cheating is good play. Golfers routinely call penalties on themselves for breaking a rule. Sometimes these cost them a lot of money and important ranking points that will help determine their future earnings.

Anyways poker is not a sport, it's a competition and for any competitive match to have real meaning there must be rules and both sides should play by them.

Why aren't poker rules cut and dried? Because poker is an evolving game and not a staid league where players are told when to show up, what to wear, and on which days they play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your golf example is not acceptable. You are penalized severely for not calling a 1 shot penalty on yourself if caught. You will be disqualified from the tournament if caught. I welcome your response, but please don't pretend that risk aversion is morally pure.

Obviously my OP was not clear. I did not mean to advocate outright cheating. what I was referring to is the lack of uniform enforcement of rules between players at a certain game.

If Player A, an obvious drunken idiot who doesn't respect his money, makes a string bet it is considered as a different situation versus expert Player B by many posters on this forum. For this example, we will assume that Player B is an expert player who derives +EV from a stringbet. In a serious competition, Player A is held to the same standard as Player B. In poker, many will advocate that Player A be allowed to string while Player B be held to the rules. This distinction is based solely on Player B's perceived superior skill.

To return to your golf example, BS tournaments are based on handicaps. Serious tournaments are based on strokes.

As far as the rules of poker changing, all major sports have organized commitees that regulates rule changes. Every year there are outright rule changes and new areas of emphasis in officiating. Regardless of the regard I hold Bob Ciaffone in, his personal rules of poker don't measure up to that standard.

[juanez]

[ QUOTE ]
Is poker a serious sporting endeavor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, it's just a card game played for money. A sport? Hardly.

[ QUOTE ]
In all serious sporting endeavors, getting over on the other guy/officials is just considered good play.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's called cheating. Oh...IMHO of course. Not getting caught when you break a rule doesn't make it a "good play". Maybe in your book it does. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[hayduke]

[ QUOTE ]
how many sports allow you to drink beer during competition?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God softball season is almost here....

[El_Hombre_Grande]

Its not nearly that cut and dry in other sports, each of which have there own culture. In football, holding in the trenches is kind of accepted as "much as i can get away with." But cut blocking, not so much. In Golf, cheating is always cheating and dishonorable. In baseball, spitballs fall under the "whatever you can get away with" category and throwing at someone's head does not (although it used to).
In Hockey and boxing we've seen limits placed on even the most brutal sports (not many boxers came out in favor of Tyson's ear eating) In Poker, as you noted, I don't think there is a lot of consensus. I think its because of how many "angle shooters" have traditionally tried the game, and the fact that it was largely illegal in most places for a long time. Thus the "whatever I can get away with" attitude has too much support.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
If Player A, an obvious drunken idiot who doesn't respect his money, makes a string bet it is considered as a different situation versus expert Player B by many posters on this forum. For this example, we will assume that Player B is an expert player who derives +EV from a stringbet. In a serious competition, Player A is held to the same standard as Player B. In poker, many will advocate that Player A be allowed to string while Player B be held to the rules. This distinction is based solely on Player B's perceived superior skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's based on intentions (or probable intentions). The drunk guy wanted to bet more to begin with. The angle shooter only wanted to bet more after he got a read with his initial bet.

[cdlarmore]

I really think it revents back to old poker ways and money on the table, if your shady and you get caught, you might loose a few bucks, or doyle and buddies might be waiting outside to bust you up...its taken more seriously, and rough people play the sport. I have seen slashed tires, muggings, and knifes come out at poker games, ever seen that on the golf course?

[Karmic]

I wouldn't say getting over on the other guy/officials is just considered good play, but you don't call penalties on yourself either. It is unquestionable that there are angle shooters in all sports and that many of those people are held up for ridicule by their peers. Watch people flop in soccer, for example, you might call it a good play but other soccer players may call that guy a fish, and just might make sure he falls for real next time.

[ QUOTE ]
In every sport, superior knowledge of the rules is an advantage. You aren't considered a "nit" when you point out your opponent has made a play that is not legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly not true, most famous example being the pine tar game. You are also a nit if you try to disqualify a basketball team because you think their shorts are an inch too long and violate uniform rules. You are a basketball player, would you call palming on an opposing player every time you saw it?

I was a D1 athlete too, it depends on the play, if the ref didn't see it it's not a foul, even if the ref did see it they may not call a foul, they are judgement calls. But, faking fouls on the other guy is dirty play imo.

For poker in cash games I think the rules are the responsibility of the people in the hand and the dealer/floor, some rules can be eased. In a tournament strict enforcement is necessary and so, if not a sport, a tournament is definately a serious gaming endeavor.