Crazy Pineapple

[Phat Mack]

I loved Robert Gasper's crazy pineapple article--very well written and very well thought out.

I found a couple of things interesting, the first of which is from Hand 2, Situation 2;

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 - Ah Js 2h, Flop Ac 3s 4h

Situation #1: Mr. Tight, a very tight and passive player, limps under the gun. You have only seen him raise once pre-flop, and that was with AAKs. His limping range includes big aces and pocket pairs 99+ and he will fold to any flop bet if he has not connected with at least top pair good kicker or an eight out draw. Everyone folds to the small blind (a loose typical player) who completes and you check (3 small bets). The flop comes Ac 3s 4h and the small blind checks. You bet out, hoping Mr. Tight will fold. He calls, and the small blind folds instead. (5 small bets) Should you hold on to your Ah Js, or go with Ah 2h to see the turn?

Your Ah Js is probably behind any hand that Mr. Tight would first limp under the gun and then call a bet with on this flop. If Mr. Tight bets on the turn, you would be wise to fold. More than likely, you are drawing to three Jacks and hoping for Mr. Tight to also check on the turn. On the other hand, Ah 2h offers a little more hope; catching one of four 5's for the straight, one of three 2's for two pair or another heart to pick up enough outs to see the river if Mr. Tight bets the turn. In general, if you find yourself at discard suspecting that you will need to release your hand to a turn bet, maximize your outs.

Situation #2: Same as above, only Mr. Tight folds to your flop bet and the loose small blind calls. (5 small bets) Here the AJ looks more attractive against the small blind's range. You are not interested in maximizing outs as much as extracting value in this situation

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I've added the emphasis on the last sentence.

I'm not so sure about extracting value here. In fact, I think I'd prefer to play this hand against Mr. Tight rather than against the small blind. I've got a better chance of out-playing Mr. Tight on later streets if I miss. But what could small blind have to call my bet on the flop? A3? A4? 52? This flop has small blind written all over it... I'm probably not putting any more money in the pot if I play the AJ.

The other thing I was curious about was...

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Hand 3 - 7s Ac Tc , Flop 8c Jc 9s
<snip>.
Situation #2: Pre-flop Mr. Tight from the earlier hand raises under the gun. He gets one cold caller and you mis-click and make a loose call from the big blind.

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Anybody else think this is not a mis-click, but a clear call?

[Buzz]

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I loved Robert Gasper's crazy pineapple article--very well written and very well thought out.

[/ QUOTE ]Mack - I agree. An excellent thought provoking article!

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Situation #2: Same as above, only Mr. Tight folds to your flop bet and the loose small blind calls. (5 small bets) Here the AJ looks more attractive against the small blind's range. You are not interested in maximizing outs as much as extracting value in this situation

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure about extracting value here. In fact, I think I'd prefer to play this hand against Mr. Tight rather than against the small blind.

[/ QUOTE ]But that's not an option; Mr. Tight has folded.

The question in my mind was whether I'd want a jack kicker or a deuce for the straight draw. S.B. has a wide range of hands, and they don't necessarily include an ace. Keeping the jack as a kicker is only worthwhile if S.B. has an ace and cannot muster up a better kicker than a jack.

But if S.B. does not have an ace, then Hero's kicker doesn't matter.

If S.B. does have an ace, then if he also has a king, queen, four, or three, Hero is behind in keeping the jack. That's 14 cards, and all S.B. needs is one of them to be ahead of Hero if hero keeps the jack. 14*13/2+14*30 = 511 ways.

Hero is tied if S.B. has an ace with a jack and another card. 3+3*27 = 84 ties.

Hero is ahead by keeping the jack if S.B. has an ace with any other two cards. 27*26/2 = 351 ways.

Thus if S.B. has one ace, Hero figures to be behind by 351 to 511 with 84 ties.

If S.B. has an ace plus a king, queen, four, or three, then Hero is dead if he keeps the jack - unless he catches a jack and S.B. doesn't improve.

If S.B. has an ace plus no king, queen, four, or three, then Hero is ahead unless S.B. improves and Hero doesn't.

I think Hero has a better chance against an unknown hand if he keeps the A2. The jack as a kicker in C.P. just isn't all that good, and here (if S.B. doesn't have an ace or if S.B. has an ace plus a king, queen, four, or three) it may be unnecessary.

Penultimately, if S.B. happens to have a set or two pairs, threes and fours, then Hero does better by keeping the deuce.

Lastly, if S.B. does have an ace plus a four or three, and if hero keeps the jack, Hero has three outs (the jacks) to improve and beat S.B. On the other hand, if Hero keeps the deuce, then Hero has four outs (the fives) to improve, plus the back-door flush draw (worth almost one out relative to the fives).
10*9/2 = 45 ways for backdoor flush.
6+4*46 = 190 ways for a five.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm keeping the deuce and throwing the jack against either T.P. or S.B.

That's not to demean the article or the author's point of view. It's an excellent, well-written, thought provoking article.

Regarding the other, flopped straight, hand:
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Anybody else think this is not a mis-click, but a clear call?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know. I'd be very tempted to raise. With this flop, I don't think Hero wants anyone to get a cheap draw. Lots of scare cards to come on the turn.

Buzz

[Stylite]

Glad you enjoyed the article.

My thinking on Hand 2-2 is that the small blind's check and then call on the flop shows weakness and could come from weaker aces, pocket pairs, and draws like 56. If the small blind had bet first or check raised, then I'd be a bit more concerned about two pair or the straight.

Good question though. If the small blind was a tricky/good player, his line could be a strange slowplay. Against a tighter player, you would start worrying more about that call coming from a scared AQ.

For Hand 3-2, Mr. Tight's UTG raise is 100% of the time from an AAT+ suited hand. You would be calling hoping to flop a 7Tx, an 89x or two or more clubs. Something like 7c7sAc would make a better hand to pick off Mr. Tight's aces from the blinds.

[Stylite]

Buzz,

I can see what you are saying about going with A2 vs. AJ, in hand 2-2, especially against an unknown range. Your analysis looks right. What bugs me about the small blind's line is his check call. Unless it's an odd slowplay, it defines his range as something he doesn't want to get rid of yet (especially heads-up) but the holding isn't quite so strong. A6-AT are good candidates. The question hinges on whether those specific hands show up often enough vs. the rest of his range in this situation. If not, then A2 would be more correct as you pointed out.

[Buzz]

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A6-AT are good candidates

[/ QUOTE ]Stylite - I'd enlarge the the range to at least include A5.

But here's the thing: in order to play A5-AT, S.B. has to have a starting hand with two cards in the five-ten range. (otherwise he'll play his ace with whatever other card is in his hand, with the possible exception of a deuce.

Crudely and approximately relatively, S.B. has 2*24*23/2 = 552 ways to have two cards in that range to go with an ace.

Meanwhile, S.B. has 2*24*14 = 672 ways to have one card in the five-ten range and the other card a king, queen, four, or three (to go with the ace).

He might be hesitant to bet AK or AQ, but reticent to fold. But that's only 2*24*8 of the possibilities.

You'd think he would not be hesitant to bet A3 or A4, the other 2*24*6 of the possibilities, but a regular Omaha player (such as me) might tend to be wary of betting A3 or A4, certainly in a full, loose Omaha game, but maybe also in C.P.

I don't know..... sets are not far fetched in C.P., although you'd think that S.B. would bet a set.

S.B. might also be hesitant with no ace but with two bottom pairs.

Or he might check/call with a five and a six but no ace (open ended straight draw).

Would he call with less, say a pair lower than aces, 55 maybe? ...or even a three or four with a king kicker? (You or I probably wouldn't check/call with K4, but you never know about some opponents).

A jack would be the worst. You'd hate yourself if you played your A2 while S.B. played his AJ.

A deuce would also hurt. You'd hate yourself if you didn't play your AJ and your opponent played an A2. He might be hesitant to bet either AJ or A2.

Seems not clear cut to me. S.B. could have a number of hands such that keeping your AJ would be better than keeping your A2. Considering the hesitation to bet, the decision seems very close. I hadn't fully considered the hesitation when I wrote my first post in this thread. That does make it closer.

What tips the balance for me is that he could be playing a whole bunch of pairs KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55, even 22. There are a total of fifty four of these possible pairs, and 40*54 = 2160 ways to have one of these pairs with a card other than an ace. I wouldn't pay to play one of these pairs after an A34 flop, but I know people who would. That 2160 added to 672 dwarfs the 552 for an ace plus two cards in the mid-range. I didn't add in AJ and A2 or 56, and probably some others, but it doesn't seem necessary. There simply are a lot more ways for S.B. to have something other than A2, A5-AJ than for S.B. to have a hand in that range.

Slow playing a flopped set or straight for one round is yet another possibility. That would seem poor play after this particular flop, but still it's a possibility.

At any rate, even giving consideration to S.B.'s reticence to bet, I still think he's more likely not to hold A2,A5-AJ than he is likely to hold a hand in that range. And Hero's A2 is better against all these various other aceless and A3, A4, AQ, AK hands than AJ would be.

Buzz

[Stylite]

Buzz,

While A2 may be a statistical favorite compared to AJ against much of the Sb's range, much of the time it is only a slightly better option than AJ. Playing AJ in those cases would only be a very small error. However, against the lower aces, playing A2 is a substantial mistake.

The only hands where A2 is clearly superior (greater than 7% edge) to AJ is against AQ, AK and a slowplayed big hand like two pair or a set.

All in all, its pretty close depending on the read. If we can rule out the slowplayed big hands and still go with A2, approximately one in five times (very rough estimate) you'll be placing yourself in a dominated position while 4 in five times you'll be slightly better off than the AJ. If you choose AJ you'll usually be a favorite to win the hand, but 4 out five times a few percent less favored than if you had chosen A2.

I'll have to put some more thought into this situation as you have brought out some aspects I originally didn't consider. In any case, I'm still confident that whether you go with A2 or AJ, you are more than likely in front of the Sb after his check/call and should be extracting value (though not with reckless abandon).

[Phat Mack]

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Glad you enjoyed the article.

My thinking on Hand 2-2 is that the small blind's check and then call on the flop shows weakness and could come from weaker aces, pocket pairs, and draws like 56. If the small blind had bet first or check raised, then I'd be a bit more concerned about two pair or the straight.

Good question though. If the small blind was a tricky/good player, his line could be a strange slowplay. Against a tighter player, you would start worrying more about that call coming from a scared AQ.

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Good points. In some of these games, flopping a big hand precipitates an automatic wait for a bigger betting round (I assume we are playing limit here), so the first thought to run through my paranoid mind was that he had a monster. He could have a draw like 56 or A2, or a crummy Ace. If he does have one of those hands, shucking the Jack won't help me. Buzz has be convinced that it will, so I'm convinced both ways. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've played a lot of NL and PL CP, so I tend to see a monster behind every tree in this situation.

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For Hand 3-2, Mr. Tight's UTG raise is 100% of the time from an AAT+ suited hand. You would be calling hoping to flop a 7Tx, an 89x or two or more clubs. Something like 7c7sAc would make a better hand to pick off Mr. Tight's aces from the blinds.

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My bad. I should have read Mr. Tight's description better. I like to play CP with hold 'em players who will raise AA-JJ here. Of course there are hands I would rather have, but still, I'm getting 5:1 and I can't be worse than a 3:1 dog here.

Again, great article.