tough spot against a brilliant lag

[mike l.]

with 99 or 77 id be betting and raising for value. A high is much worse. i dont hate a flop fold but think it's a little too weak against this laggy group 4 handed. the problem with the river is all pairs are being value bet by utg there and bb might even still be sandbagging with something as weak as 4th pair waiting to c/r.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
the flop is JT5 rainbow, checked to utg who donks, i call, bb calls.

the turn is a K. checked to me and i check.

the river is a 4. bb checks, utg bets, i ???

i folded the river. he showed Q8o for a bluff. utg is death donkey. bb was stinkypete. glad you were all tricked into misplaying it also.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing missing from the responses was "expert check on the turn" or something by someone. Although DD has surpassed expert and moved on to brilliance. Tough to improve from there. Magnificent would be cool though.

Raise light UTG. Auto bet the flop. Put the brakes on the turn and then take a shot at the river. Short handed holdem 101. NH.

[Entity]

Mike,

I'd tend to fold this flop. In the past I've been very happy letting Chris hang himself and be exploitable by trying to make you fold unfoldable hands and let him have some small pots now and then. Chris loves the strategy of donking out with a wide range of hands in these spots and I tend to let him hang himself occasionally, mixing in raises and calldowns and allowing myself to occasionally be "exploited" in one pot. The big thing about trying to avoid being exploited here is to make sure that your full handrange isn't being exploited by his handrange, and not necessarily that your hand in this spot (which is near the bottom of your handrange on this board) isn't being exploited by his sepcific hand (which is probably near the midrange of his handrange).

Rob

[vmacosta]

"The big thing about trying to avoid being exploited here is to make sure that your full handrange isn't being exploited by his handrange, and not necessarily that your hand in this spot (which is near the bottom of your handrange on this board) isn't being exploited by his sepcific hand (which is probably near the midrange of his handrange)"

I don't really understand this but it sounds smart. Can you clarify?

A lot of mike's range doesn't exactly love DD's donk {22-99, Ax}. Plus since it isn't hu and assuming DD donks with pairs also, I was guessing that Q8 was near the botton of his range.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
"The big thing about trying to avoid being exploited here is to make sure that your full handrange isn't being exploited by his handrange, and not necessarily that your hand in this spot (which is near the bottom of your handrange on this board) isn't being exploited by his sepcific hand (which is probably near the midrange of his handrange)"

I don't really understand this but it sounds smart. Can you clarify?

A lot of mike's range doesn't exactly love DD's donk {22-99, Ax}. Plus since it isn't hu and assuming DD donks with pairs also, I was guessing that Q8 was near the botton of his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"The big thing about trying to avoid being exploited here is to make sure that your full handrange isn't being exploited by his handrange, and not necessarily that your hand in this spot (which is near the bottom of your handrange on this board) isn't being exploited by his sepcific hand (which is probably near the midrange of his handrange)"

I don't really understand this but it sounds smart. Can you clarify?

A lot of mike's range doesn't exactly love DD's donk {22-99, Ax}. Plus since it isn't hu and assuming DD donks with pairs also, I was guessing that Q8 was near the botton of his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not sure what range of pocket pairs Mike is 3-betting with, but I don't see 55-99 being that huge of a problem to play against Chris (Chris donks a lot has a wide enough range of hands here that calling and picking up any live tells he gives off, which he semi-often does, should be ok). Mike's 3betting preflop range is so heavily weighted toward boards that will find showdowns on a board like this that I think Chris' strategy is exploitable in and of itself, which is I suppose why I don't think Mike needs to really push back with A8o on this board. Pete being in the BB on this board complicates things just slightly even though I know his range is fairly wide preflop. I think it's probably the main factor that shifts me from making it look like I want to fold the flop (then calling down) to making me simply just fold the flop.

Still not sure if I summarized my past statement well, but what I was trying to say is that your play is only exploitable if your entire handrange vs. Chris in this scenario is easily exploited by him donking the flop, and I don't believe that your handrange is actually going to have an issue with a flop donk. Consequently I don't worry about a flop fold with A8o being exploitable here as Chris will continue to donk too many flops (IMO) with too wide of a range and you can use that to your advantage in the future.

Rob

[DrSavage]

Playing against DeathDonkey makes grown men go insane.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The big thing about trying to avoid being exploited here is to make sure that your full handrange isn't being exploited by his handrange, and not necessarily that your hand in this spot (which is near the bottom of your handrange on this board) isn't being exploited by his sepcific hand (which is probably near the midrange of his handrange)"

I don't really understand this but it sounds smart. Can you clarify?

A lot of mike's range doesn't exactly love DD's donk {22-99, Ax}. Plus since it isn't hu and assuming DD donks with pairs also, I was guessing that Q8 was near the botton of his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"The big thing about trying to avoid being exploited here is to make sure that your full handrange isn't being exploited by his handrange, and not necessarily that your hand in this spot (which is near the bottom of your handrange on this board) isn't being exploited by his sepcific hand (which is probably near the midrange of his handrange)"

I don't really understand this but it sounds smart. Can you clarify?

A lot of mike's range doesn't exactly love DD's donk {22-99, Ax}. Plus since it isn't hu and assuming DD donks with pairs also, I was guessing that Q8 was near the botton of his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not sure what range of pocket pairs Mike is 3-betting with, but I don't see 55-99 being that huge of a problem to play against Chris (Chris donks a lot has a wide enough range of hands here that calling and picking up any live tells he gives off, which he semi-often does, should be ok). Mike's 3betting preflop range is so heavily weighted toward boards that will find showdowns on a board like this that I think Chris' strategy is exploitable in and of itself, which is I suppose why I don't think Mike needs to really push back with A8o on this board. Pete being in the BB on this board complicates things just slightly even though I know his range is fairly wide preflop. I think it's probably the main factor that shifts me from making it look like I want to fold the flop (then calling down) to making me simply just fold the flop.

Still not sure if I summarized my past statement well, but what I was trying to say is that your play is only exploitable if your entire handrange vs. Chris in this scenario is easily exploited by him donking the flop, and I don't believe that your handrange is actually going to have an issue with a flop donk. Consequently I don't worry about a flop fold with A8o being exploitable here as Chris will continue to donk too many flops (IMO) with too wide of a range and you can use that to your advantage in the future.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I get it, DD's flop donking range is so wide that it's suboptimal but not wide enough that you have to call everything and since A8 missed and the pot is multiway its ok to just give up. Makes sense, thanks.