Standard Parent Question

[revots33]

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To be honest, no 27 year-old has a grasp of the realities of the world. You may think you know at that age, but you don't.

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We're up to 27 now? Must be that whole "extended adolescence" thing I've been hearing so much about.

Seriously though, all this talk about "wait until you're over 30 to have kids" might be nice to help 27 year olds "find themselves", but ignores the biological realities. There's a reason fertility doctors are so busy these days.

[Blarg]

Getting too drunk and lazy to go to the drug store to buy a rubber is the biological reality that more people have to deal with. Using your fertility unwisely is at least as troubling, especially to a young person who isn't settled into his future yet, as potential fertility problems somewhere down the line.

[daveT]

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To be honest, no 27 year-old has a grasp of the realities of the world. You may think you know at that age, but you don't.

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We're up to 27 now? Must be that whole "extended adolescence" thing I've been hearing so much about.

Seriously though, all this talk about "wait until you're over 30 to have kids" might be nice to help 27 year olds "find themselves", but ignores the biological realities. There's a reason fertility doctors are so busy these days.

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You talk like I am saying to stay a virgin until 30. How hard is it to put on a condom? Or more disturbing, when you are with a woman and she traps you by "forgetting" to take her pills. This is hardly biological. It is psychological, and this is a poor showing of maturity and responsibility.

I use my own life as an example of what I am talking about.

When I was 27, I bought a book everyone here has heard of called "Small Stakes Hold'em." I bought this book not for recreational purposes, but because I wanted to go pro. I never played Hold'em and didn't know the rules. Obviously, this is a HUGE decision in my life.

After a few weeks, I was stuck about $200, big money to me at the time. I was fortunate that I picked up a descent building contract and I could afford to eat a few hundred without sweating.

Let's add a wife to this equation:

"Hello, honey. Wow, Borders? You bought a book."

"Um, yeah, I bought a book."

"Great." (One reason I would have married her is because she likes to read) What did you buy......Oh. So another hobby, Dave?"

"Well. No. I am thinking this could be an extra income."

"Uh huh. Like fire-eating?"

"Well."

No, seriously dude. You made what, a hundred dollars? You taste like a [censored] gas tank."

Obviously this would not go to well, right? How many people would support my decision? My friends didn't and don't support my decision, and I would expect my wife to support me, especially when we are both poor and now I am asking to possibly risk addiction and losing large sums of money?

Okay, I may not be the best example in the world. I am saying that chances are, when you go to college, you will train and enter a career that you are not happy to be in, and if you want to change that, and especially make more money, which is adding to risk, you are better off exploring these possibilities on your own. Having to make decisions based on a wife will limit you. If you have a kid, your options are basically to suck it up and go with it. Really, imagine the above conversation when the wife screams "We have a [censored] baby on the way!"

The average person changes careers 6 times in their life time. There is absolutely no way that you know what will make you happy in your 20s.

I also see the view as Blarg does. To have a kid too early, especially when you are too young, to poor, and too unstable, is selfish.

[revots33]

Not arguing that point, simply stating that you can't postpone parenthood until "you're ready", simply because you want to. Especially when the generally agreed upon age of being "ready" seems to get older every year, while women's years of fertility do not.

People not very long ago would laugh at the notion that a 27 year old was not "ready" to have kids. He or she may not WANT to have kids yet - but that's a different issue. There are a lot of would-be parents in their 30s these days, who are realizing the hard way that extending your carefree adolescence before having kids can mean no kids at all.

My main argument, anyway, was with the idea of 27-year-olds not being ready to be a parent. Last I checked, 27 year olds were about 9 years into adulthood.

[revots33]

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You talk like I am saying to stay a virgin until 30.

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No I'm not. I'm saying 27 is a perfectly reasonable age to become a parent, if that's what a person wants. Waiting later, because who knows you might decide you want to ditch your job and become a poker pro, is a rather adolescent way for a grown man to think, IMO.

And waiting can and does have consequences.

[tarheeljks]

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I'm saying 27 is a perfectly reasonable age to become a parent, if that's what a person wants.

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i agree revots. there is a difference b/t saying "my life is not particularly stable, so i should wait a while to have a child" and saying "i don't want to have a kid b/c i want the latitude to change my plans on a moment's notice."

if you are 25 and have laid your plans and set them in motion, what is wrong w/having a child as part of the plan?

[daveT]

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People not very long ago would laugh at the notion that a 27 year old was not "ready" to have kids.

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Not too long ago:

People thought 30k a year was good money.
People thought it was bad to raise a child in an apartment
People thought AOL was the gods gift to earth.
Food wasn't loaded with insecticides.
Rap was about having fun.
Hairspray was used more than gel.

The world is changing in many ways.

Not too long ago:

A factory job existed in America.
You could raise a family on $10 an hour.
You could buy a house on $15 an hour.
Computers and Cell Phones were a Class Symbol.

Now, we have our world. Adjust. Please. I feel I made a responsible choice in waiting to have a child. Think about the 80s when you could go to school, learn word-processing, and you could make 40k a year. The companies said "screw it," fired all of them, and trained their own employees and paid them $6 an hour.

The same is going on now. Many firms are downsizing, retirement is going out the window, etc. It is not as easy as it was "back then." I hope that the older generations wake up to this.

I had to wait. I used to work in construction. I started up making $20 an hour to LEARN. Then as I gained more experience, I started earning $15 and hour. Three years later, I was earning $10 and hour and I was nearly a master carpenter at the time. The tide was turning. I already saw it turning. I had to make an adjustment. Add a kid to the equation, this would burn my ass for sure.

The above goes without saying that I was not looking forward to a career in construction, and the change was going to happen sooner or later. The circumstances made it happen sooner.

[Blarg]

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Not arguing that point, simply stating that you can't postpone parenthood until "you're ready", simply because you want to. Especially when the generally agreed upon age of being "ready" seems to get older every year, while women's years of fertility do not.


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Of course you can! I find it very odd when people describe their choices as if they were necessities or even as if they were not choices at all. Divinely mandated perhaps? Who knows.

The fact is we make choices, we are not just passive victims to the world passing through our lives.

What you're saying is also oddly directly in contradiction to present-day science. With fertility drugs, women are having children older and older. One lady had a kid when she was 65 a couple of years ago. Do the chances for the kid being in perfect health go down? Sure. How drastically is the more pertinent question. If a couple wait until they are in their 30's, they are hardly condemning their child to life as a biological mess.

Further, everything is a trade-off. Of course you are going to make trade-offs of some sort no matter what choices you make in life. What matters is what you get in exchange. What is being suggested here by daveT, myself, and others, is that you get a whole lot by waiting until your life is settled down a bit and you know who you are and where you're going before having a kid; personally, I think the kid benefits even more, and by a lot. He gets a better chance in the world in all kinds of ways, and is likely to have more grounded, mature parents in a relationship that is more mature and therefore more likely to last. And last for the good reasons, not just out of obligation.

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People not very long ago would laugh at the notion that a 27 year old was not "ready" to have kids. He or she may not WANT to have kids yet - but that's a different issue. There are a lot of would-be parents in their 30s these days, who are realizing the hard way that extending your carefree adolescence before having kids can mean no kids at all.


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This is really far off base as far as science goes. It's not a serious argument for most people.

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My main argument, anyway, was with the idea of 27-year-olds not being ready to be a parent. Last I checked, 27 year olds were about 9 years into adulthood.

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It's pretty easy to go through an entire life without ever growing up. Biological age seems to me easily the worst determinant of when it is appropriate to become a parent.

[Blarg]

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People not very long ago would laugh at the notion that a 27 year old was not "ready" to have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not too long ago:

People thought 30k a year was good money.
People thought it was bad to raise a child in an apartment
People thought AOL was the gods gift to earth.
Food wasn't loaded with insecticides.
Rap was about having fun.
Hairspray was used more than gel.

The world is changing in many ways.

Not too long ago:

A factory job existed in America.
You could raise a family on $10 an hour.
You could buy a house on $15 an hour.
Computers and Cell Phones were a Class Symbol.

Now, we have our world. Adjust. Please. I feel I made a responsible choice in waiting to have a child. Think about the 80s when you could go to school, learn word-processing, and you could make 40k a year. The companies said "screw it," fired all of them, and trained their own employees and paid them $6 an hour.

The same is going on now. Many firms are downsizing, retirement is going out the window, etc. It is not as easy as it was "back then." I hope that the older generations wake up to this.

I had to wait. I used to work in construction. I started up making $20 an hour to LEARN. Then as I gained more experience, I started earning $15 and hour. Three years later, I was earning $10 and hour and I was nearly a master carpenter at the time. The tide was turning. I already saw it turning. I had to make an adjustment. Add a kid to the equation, this would burn my ass for sure.

The above goes without saying that I was not looking forward to a career in construction, and the change was going to happen sooner or later. The circumstances made it happen sooner.

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Excellent post. I don't think American society in general has really come to grips with how the world economy is shaping up and how deep and transformative the changes are and will be. This is having and will have an ever more drastic effect on the prospects of our children. Having a kid and giving it a fair shot to live at least as well as you did used to be a walk in the park compared to what it is these days. You used to be able to afford a house as long as you held a job and stayed out of jail, or pretty close to it. Now you can graduate with a law degree in major cities like L.A. and it's good luck, buddy.

By the way, I saw and lived your 80's word processing story myself.

[Conspire]

I havent thought as deeply on the subject as Dave. I just know that before I can take care of another person, I need to be able to take care of myself. Im a very destructive person and have many personal and chemical demons.

I am trying to get better and clean myself up, but its going to take time. Its also dumb to say, but I feel that my kid would turn out like me and take some of the stupid paths I have taken. That very thought which may seem trivial to a lot of people really affects me.