Stupid preflop decision vs DeathDonkey

[mike l.]

"then again they don't typically play this low."

i think that's part of the problem too. this post really didnt belong in high stakes. it was a 50-100 hand and most 50-100 live games are like 2-4 online (the small 2-4 not 200-400).

[Patriks]

i can see how capping this from time to time would be a good play.
the hand will prolly be easier to play postflop, we might get a freecard on the flop and often dont save money by not capping it anyway.

[Clarkmeister]

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it's telling that the live players (gabe, me, death donkey, and clarkmeister) all favor not folding

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the live players i spoke to all favor folding, but then again they don't typically play this low.

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What I'd like to see is how many people have sat in a 50-100ish 4-handed game and seen players who literally have a 3-betting range of TT-AA and AK only from the SB against the button. Cause despite Joe's read, I frankly ain't buying it.

And btw I'm sure he had one of those hands here, otherwise it wouldn't have gotten posted and discussed, but I still call shenanigans on the premise and think that at a bare minimum AQ and AJs are added into that range. Also, Death Donkey for sure knows Joe is capable of folding for 2 more and is more than capable of leveraging this scary 3-bet in order to buy the button and 1BB of dead money into the pot.

[emerson]

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Live 50/100 at Rio, 4 handed. DD, two super fish and me.

I open on the button with 97s, SB who is super loose but passive preflop 3 bets, DeathDonkey 4 bets in the big blind.

Call or fold? How close?

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Call. You are in for half and will be getting 13 to 1 to call one bet on the flop, giving you odds to draw on lots of partial hits. There will be enough money in the pot to keep opponents in and paying you off if you hit strong. You need to see the flop.

If the BB gets you to fold here it is a major victory. He'll have position on a weak player with your dead money in the pot.

[Joe Tall]

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it's telling that the live players (gabe, me, death donkey, and clarkmeister) all favor not folding

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the live players i spoke to all favor folding, but then again they don't typically play this low.

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What I'd like to see is how many people have sat in a 50-100ish 4-handed game and seen players who literally have a 3-betting range of TT-AA and AK only from the SB against the button. Cause despite Joe's read, I frankly ain't buying it.

And btw I'm sure he had one of those hands here, otherwise it wouldn't have gotten posted and discussed, but I still call shenanigans on the premise and think that at a bare minimum AQ and AJs are added into that range. Also, Death Donkey for sure knows Joe is capable of folding for 2 more and is more than capable of leveraging this scary 3-bet in order to buy the button and 1BB of dead money into the pot.

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I'm willing to add AJs+ as I saw him call w/it earlier in a similar situation (when we were 5 handed). Here is a sim I ran with Donkey that night with DeathDonkey's "wide" hand range.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
DeathDonkey: 32.172% { 44+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AJo+, KQo }
PassiveSB: 44.756% { 88+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Joe Tall: 23.073% { 97s }

Just to further confuse everyone, we saw the SB limp UTG in a full 50/100 w/A3o beyond other strange passive plays AND, get this, DeathDonkey tells me the SB in this hand is a high stake HU player online. Known to play 1k/2k HU and win. Go figure, limit Hold'em is obviously a sham, heh.

[Bill King]

[ QUOTE ]
"then again they don't typically play this low."

i think that's part of the problem too. this post really didnt belong in high stakes. it was a 50-100 hand and most 50-100 live games are like 2-4 online (the small 2-4 not 200-400).

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this is pretty accurate.

once it was folded to me on the button in a 75/150 HOE game and i opened w/ J9o, SB 3-bet i called.

sb is a tight but "sup bro" type of guy w/ his girl hanging on his shoulder.. seems like the aggressive demeanor.

flop comes J high he bets, i raise he 3-bets i call.. turn 9, he bets, i raise, he 3-towns again, i 4-bet, he 5-bets, i 6-bet, he 7-BETS AND SHOWS ME AN ACE LIKE "HEY UR SO FAR BEHIND GET OUT", i 8-bet and he calls me down on a blank river.. this is not exactly a regular thing but the quality of play at this type of level is attrocious even from the regulars.

[mike l.]

good so if youre 23% you should obviously call getting 5 to 1. this is a better implied odds situation than rio btw because sb has the good made hand he will feel inclined to pay off with and you have position, plus you can read his hand well so it's not like youll make a pair and pay off the whole way against AA. thanks for the sim now it's even more of a no brainer call.

[vmacosta]

why is it that all these great poker minds are wasting their time bickering about such an unimportant little pf decision?

btw i vote call but i am looser than most.

[James282]

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why is it that all these great poker minds are wasting their time bickering about such an unimportant little pf decision?

btw i vote call but i am looser than most.

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Because little decisions like this are the only ones remotely worth discussing. I think I probably dump it. Also, mike, talking about those of you who 'primarily play live' isn't especially worthwhile because I can't imagine how this could be a live vs. online decision. I mean sure, you get better reads postflop and maybe pay off less when you are behind, but even online players pick up reads vs. guys like this when playing live, and the difference between what you see vs. a guy like this and what i see can't be all that much different.

I think ultimately this decision is so close that it's probably not worth discussing tooooo much, but now that I've typed this whole post, I think that in a vaccuum it's a fold, but there are certain table conditions where it would be a call(most notably if there are players who would become more likely to attack what will ultimately give you a weak/nit/unstandard folding type image).

James

James

[mike l.]

great live players know their opponents much much better in general and sometimes so well theyre really in their heads. when chris posts what he had and why he 4 bet you will all see that that was the case here. joe needed to recognize that and make the right play which was call or even raise.

with online hands the question is "what would you do?"
with live hands the question is "what should i do?"

you would fold. but that's meaningless.
*he* should have called.