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  #1  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:17 AM
Poker Clif Poker Clif is offline
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Default Raise sizing with multiple limpers

My standard raise is as follows:

1. Standard is 3bb.
2. Add 1 bb if I'm in early position (to keep late limpers from getting good pot odds).
3. If there are limpers behind me, add 1bb for each limper (again, giving pot odds which don't make a bunch of limping/calling automatic).

So, if the blinds are 25/50, I'm in late position, and there are two limpers, I would raise 5bb (3 as the standard raise plus two for the limpers).

My problem is that at micro/low levels, where 5 or 6 limpers are not uncommon, a standard raise can get big real fast.

Example:

I start a PokerStars tourament with 1,500 chips.
Level 3, blinds 25/50, and my stack is still around 1,500.
I'm on the button with 6 limpers behind me.

So it's 3bb + 6 limpers = 9bb raise, which is 225, or 15% of my stack.

It seems mathematically correct to account for limpers when I raise, but if I do that two or three times and don't win the pot, my stack has taken a huge hit.

I guess I could look at this one of two ways:

1. If that many people are going to limp or call, perhaps not even understanding pot odds, I should probably scale the limpament raises back a bit.

2. If it's mathematically correct to do it, then I should do it, period. The occasional huge payoff from having so many in the pot against my legitimate rasing hand is worth the risk of short-stacking myself when my pocket tens don't hold up.
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:02 AM
JulioYalil JulioYalil is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

i'm kinda tired rite now and this is my last post b4 goin to bed so i'll try to be short.

the problem might be u tryin to standard raise w/ too many hands in that late position w/ 6 limpers situation. if u have a 1500 stack, blinds @ 25/50 w/ 6 limpers and u on the button then there's already 375 chips (takin blinds into consideration) in the pot. that represents 25% of ur stack. instead of tryin to make a "normal" raise w/ AK, QQ, or JJ why not push? (i'm not includin AA or KK there b/c those still play very well against 2 opponents). there's a lot of time and math effort i've put into this but like i said i'm very tired rite now so i won't go into details as to why it is a better play, just try it urself or plain trust me on it. a lot of times in these low stakes online MTTs u'll get a caller w/ a smaller pair or a weaker ace (maybe even a KQ or KJ) and if they all fold then u just increase ur stack by 25% which is huge.

also, r u makin this raise w/ medium pairs? if so, try limpin for set value instead. doin it w/ AQ? stop immediately then and limp w/ the rest of them.

one last thing. ur general raisin strat is pretty standard and solid but don't live and die by it all the time. like everythin else in poker preflop raisin is dependent on the circumstances. pay very close attention and get a feel for the table. if it's a straightforward table then ur theory might be fine, but u'd be surprised at how many times a smaller raise is just as effective.
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:05 AM
JulioYalil JulioYalil is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

by the way, in the situation u described a 9BB raise is 450 chips not 225. so actually 30% it's of ur stack. if u gonna put that big a chunk of ur stack in the pot preflop in these fast structured tournaments i think u might as well go all in. so obviously the 9BB raise in this spot does not make too much sense.
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:30 AM
Jean Jean is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

actually if you have a big hand, limpers with bad hands don't have the odds to call you, even if you raise less than what you describe. So I don't think that you have to raise this much, unless you really want to take down the pot right now. Sweatening the pot with a big hand in position is certainly something very enjoyable. You'll be last to act after the flop anyway ... so why bother being called by weak hands ? They're just giving away more money to you in expectation, and as stacks are already rather low you don't give much implied odds to drawing hands like small pairs and suited connectors.

As for your theory of the +1BB for an early position raise, I don't get the point. As you're raising in early position, you represent a big hand already, so I don't quite see why you should try to discourage callers even more. Morever with so many players to act behind you, you're not unhappy to commit less, in case you run into a monster. What is your reason to do this bigger raise in early position ?
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:39 AM
JulioYalil JulioYalil is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

[ QUOTE ]
actually if you have a big hand, limpers with bad hands don't have the odds to call you, even if you raise less than what you describe. So I don't think that you have to raise this much, unless you really want to take down the pot right now. Sweatening the pot with a big hand in position is certainly something very enjoyable. You'll be last to act after the flop anyway ... so why bother being called by weak hands ? They're just giving away more money to you in expectation, and as stacks are already rather low you don't give much implied odds to drawing hands like small pairs and suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c big pairs don't play well in multiway pots. at low stakes over 95% of players don't ever go w/ implied odds b/c they don't know the concept or they don't understand it. there's a decent chance u'll end up seein the flop 3, 4, or even 5-handed w/ KK or QQ. do u really want that to happen?

ur reasonin is great, but won't work in this scenario.
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2007, 06:42 AM
JulioYalil JulioYalil is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

jean, i should also say that sweetening the pot is beautiful when holdin a strong hand but droppin sweat all over the pot is kinda nasty. i would prolly get a floor person to kick u outta the poker room if u did this.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2007, 07:26 AM
Nichlemn Nichlemn is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually if you have a big hand, limpers with bad hands don't have the odds to call you, even if you raise less than what you describe. So I don't think that you have to raise this much, unless you really want to take down the pot right now. Sweatening the pot with a big hand in position is certainly something very enjoyable. You'll be last to act after the flop anyway ... so why bother being called by weak hands ? They're just giving away more money to you in expectation, and as stacks are already rather low you don't give much implied odds to drawing hands like small pairs and suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c big pairs don't play well in multiway pots. at low stakes over 95% of players don't ever go w/ implied odds b/c they don't know the concept or they don't understand it. there's a decent chance u'll end up seein the flop 3, 4, or even 5-handed w/ KK or QQ. do u really want that to happen?

ur reasonin is great, but won't work in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your opponents all making mistakes with implied odds, it's highly likely their -EV is transferred to you in +EV.
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  #8  
Old 12-01-2007, 05:43 PM
JulioYalil JulioYalil is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponents all making mistakes with implied odds, it's highly likely their -EV is transferred to you in +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that other people are makin -ev decisions does not necessarily mean it's +ev for u
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  #9  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:28 PM
JABoyd JABoyd is offline
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Default Re: Raise sizing with multiple limpers

[ QUOTE ]

2. Add 1 bb if I'm in early position (to keep late limpers from getting good pot odds).
3. If there are limpers behind me, add 1bb for each limper (again, giving pot odds which don't make a bunch of limping/calling automatic).


[/ QUOTE ]

This reasoning doesn't make much sense to me for 1 reason.

For your (2.): You are only giving "incorrect" pot odds to the VERY NEXT person to act after your raise. If that very next person decides to call then all those following will be getting better and better pot odds to call with their position.

For your (3.): Similarly, with limpers in the pot already a raise from you will only technically affect the first limper. If that first limper decides to call your raise then again, all those limpers after will be getting better and better pot odds to call your raise.

Something you may consider is raising 2.5-3x from early position, 3-3.5x from middle position, and 4x from late position.

The reasoning behind this is that if you are early and raise but someone with position on you wakes up with a hand and reraises big, then you can get away from your hand with only a 3x investment. If you have a monster (AA, AK, KK) sill raise 3x from early which will get more dead money in the pot. Hope someone reraises you and then PUMP IT. Remember, you are out of position, invest as little as possible.

In late position raise 4x since obviously there is less of a chance that someone behind you will wake up with a monster. Therefore you can invest more money and get dead money in the pot from all those limpers before you. You have position now, so invest more.

Your theory works well heads up. But with more players in the pot the pot odds will be MUCH better for those with position!!
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