Chip cheating schemes at the WSOP....let's hear them.....

hollaballa · #1 03-19-2007, 12:22 PM

I noticed Alan G's comment in the "new wsop structure" thread that the increase to $20k starting chips may have been partly to discourage "chip substitution".

Anyone want to elaborate of chip cheating schemes at the wsop?

Harrah's has said they are going to have all new chips this year, so I guess that will make it hard for anyone to copy last years chips and enter them into the tournament.

"Chip substitution" wouldn't seem to be a huge advantage unless you got a huge stack in a prelim event and decided to pocket about $15,000 in chips to later use for the ME.

Can anyone comment on these schemes?

tendog · #2 03-19-2007, 12:39 PM

if they only use certain higher denomination chips for the main event than it would be impossible to substitute them at the end because they would not have been used in any prelim. events.

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.

i think bluff or cardplayer did a story where they tried to at least figure out when the error occured.

you can look up some old threads.

MrFizzbin · #3 03-19-2007, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if they only use certain higher denomination chips for the main event than it would be impossible to substitute them at the end because they would not have been used in any prelim. events.

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.

i think bluff or cardplayer did a story where they tried to at least figure out when the error occured.

you can look up some old threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was Pokernews, it was an excellent set of 3 articles and explained where the most likely error occured. No cheating, just a mistake by the floor.....

Rottersod · #4 03-19-2007, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

They figured out the source of the error was the final color up

i think bluff or cardplayer did a story where they tried to at least figure out when the error occured.

you can look up some old threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Reckless1der · #5 03-22-2007, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was Poker News that had the 3 part series out on this, but the big news is they finally put the 4th article out within the last couple of weeks. It confirmed their theory on when and how the extra chips got introduced, it was in the color up with 27 players remaining. They also said Kevin Donelly was one of two the players who receieved the chips. IIRC he lost them minutes afterward to AC in a AA v. KK all-in PF showdown. They did not reveal who the other player was, but the Poker News Columnist had apparently heard the name and thought it was suspect because he was so short at the time that it would have been too obvious if he suddenly got a boatload of extra chips.

Sorry I don't have the link for you right now, but do a search and I think you will find it. It was a very interesting read.

betgo · #6 03-23-2007, 07:44 AM

So they say. Notice they are also taking steps to make it more difficult for people to bring in chips from other tournaments.

rageotones · #7 03-23-2007, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

basically there was something like 92 million in chips in play at the main event last year when there should have only been 88 at the main event last year(im just making up numbers but its something like that.)

i dont think anyone has figured out what the source of the extra chips was. it could have been a massive error in a color up or cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was Poker News that had the 3 part series out on this, but the big news is they finally put the 4th article out within the last couple of weeks. It confirmed their theory on when and how the extra chips got introduced, it was in the color up with 27 players remaining. They also said Kevin Donelly was one of two the players who receieved the chips. IIRC he lost them minutes afterward to AC in a AA v. KK all-in PF showdown. They did not reveal who the other player was, but the Poker News Columnist had apparently heard the name and thought it was suspect because he was so short at the time that it would have been too obvious if he suddenly got a boatload of extra chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

was it this guy?

Greg (FossilMan) · #8 03-19-2007, 03:12 PM

Forever, in a WSOP event, you got chips equal in value to the price of the buyin. The cheapest events years ago, other than the dealers event and the ladies only event, were $1500 buyin events. In recent years, $1000 buyin open events have been added. Last year, they decided that with a minimum starting blind of 25,25, these $1000 buyin events started you out too short-stacked. So, they gave players 1500 in chips. But, if you do that, somebody can enter a $1000 buyin event, pocket a bunch of chips that cost 67 cents per chips, and add those chips to their stack in a later event, where chips are worth 1 dollar apiece.

They are quite possibly doubling the starting stack in every event this year so they can offer more play in all events without having to change the chip:dollar ratio in any event as compared to other events.

But, all of this is pure guesswork on my part.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

hollaballa · #9 03-19-2007, 03:18 PM

thanks for your thoughts greg.

haley44 · #10 03-19-2007, 05:25 PM

I was listening in on the teleconference; I might be able to add a bit. What Greg says about the increase in ALL events I can't speak to, as I don't remember it that way, but it seems very logical.

What I do remember --- and this was in response to Susie Isaacs' original question --- is the reason the chip stacks were doubled in the lower events was to provide room for additional play. The way it was explained is that the ratio of the starting blinds to the starting chip stacks will remain the same, but that by doubling the initial chip stacks, they can work in several more incremental blind levels during the middle stages of the smaller events. My interpretation here: This is designed to increase the amount of more complex play and delay the onset of push-'n'-pray poker.

(And not a ton more extra play at that --- I just read through the interesting thread on the structure.)

As for tying it back to the "chip cheating" thing, it'd be hard to. Amy and Tim's series on the overage last year was excellent, and comments that some player had managed to ring in $2.2 million in extra chips were ludicrous. There's no way any player or group of players could pull $2+ million in chips out of play in earlier events without it either being noticed or without the whole scheme being exposed, due to the massive numbers of players that would have to be involved to make it work. It was all but certain to be a math error, as it turned out to be.