Advice on KK hand, plus question about moving up in stakes

[OneByPhi]

I started playing 1/2 NL in a local casino a few months ago and enjoyed pretty good success. Slowly, I built my poker bankroll up to about 5K. I decided I was ready to move up to 3/5 a couple of weeks ago, and have already lost about half of it. This hand is typical of how things have been going since I moved up, and I guess I'm wondering: am I just running badly or am I playing badly?

I've been playing at this table for about 2 1/2 hours and have built my $300 buy-in to $559. I have established a tight-aggressive image, and most of the hands I've shown down have been strong.

The woman in the 2 seat is maybe 30 and everything about her screams MONEY. She's dressed to the nines, and the jewelry she is wearing is worth more than my car. She's a classic loose passive, with a twist. She'll call almost any pre-flop raise and will hang around with hands that seem hopeless. But she will also play monster hands very passively. For example, just a few hands earlier she limped AA after 4 other limpers, never bet out at any point during the hand, and just called to the end on a very safe-looking board, ultimately winning a decent-sized pot. She has already bought-in several times and is down more than a grand, but has won a few hands lately and her stack is just a bit smaller than mine.

The 4 seat is a guy who weighs about 400 lbs. and is drinking margaritas by the bucketful. He is a quintessential calling station. He, too, will pay almost any price to see the flop. He'll fold to a post-flop bet if the flop misses him, but if he has any kind of a draw, he stays to the end, regardless of pot odds. He has been incredibly lucky and has maybe $1200 in front of him.

The 8 seat is in the BB. He's a guy I've seen around the casino a lot, a grinder who makes a modest living separating people like the 2-seat and the 4-seat from their money. He has been bad-beat by Mr. Margarita twice in the last hour, and I suspect he's starting to steam a bit.

I'm in the 6 seat and I have the button. 3 players limp in front of me (including, of course, the rich lady and Mr. Margarita), and I look down to see K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I know I don't want to play this hand against a lot of opponents, and I also know that almost any remotely normal raise I make will be called by the 2-seat and the 4-seat, at least. With $23 already in the pot, I make it $60 to go. The BB goes into the tank, and as he stews, I can see that rich lady has already counted out her call and can't wait to get it into the pot. Finally, the BB and folds. Rich lady pushes in her call,the other limper in the 3-seat folds, and the big guy calls too, as I expected.

The pot contains $193. The flop brings 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and both the other players check to me. I try to decide how much to bet. The flop looks safe, and I'm prety sure my cowboys are still good. I don't want both of them to call, but I wouldn't mind if one of them did. I don't want to give a stright or flush draw a good price, either. I think for me maybe 45 seconds and then decide to slightly overbet the pot, betting $225 and leaving myself $274.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised, but I am a little bit when both of them quickly call. The turn is the T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Both players check to me. I really think I'm still good, and I know I can't give a free card, so I push in my last $274. Rich lady thinks a long time, but shrugs her shoulders and calls. Mr. Margarita insta-calls. The dealer tells us to turn 'em over. Rich lady shows A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the big guy turns over Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I know we're not supposed to give results, but I'm sure you know I wouldn't have posted this hand if I had won it.

I don't mean this to be a bad beat sob story. I just really want advice on two levels. First, given the profiles of the opponents, should I have just shoved the flop? In retrospect, it wouldn't have mattered because the big guy is the kind of player who would have called anyway with a flush draw and a small pair now matter how much I had bet. But from a theoretical standpoint, is it better to get in in on the flop with 2 calling stations?

On another level, my bankroll is back down to about $2600. Should I go back to 1/2 until I build it back up to 5k? I don't feel outclassed at the 3/5 table, but I have given up half my bankroll in a remarkably short period of time. I'm just not sure if I am seeing my situation very accurately right now and I would appreciate detached advice. Thanks.

[Hoi Polloi]

My theory on the should I move down post:

As you as you post it, realize you've already answered your question and move down. Deleting the post is optional.

There's no way you wrote this post from a place where you're gonna be comfortable in that game the next time you sit down. And how do expect to play in such circumstances?

[BCage]

You do realise the big guy is actually making correct calls on both the flop and the turn, right? He has to pay $225 on the flop for a $868 pot (26% for 46% equity). On the turn he has to pay $274 for a $1465 pot (19% for 31% equity). What that lady was doing is anyone's guess.

To answer your question: move down. I don't doubt you could beat that 3/5 live game, but $2600 is not nearly enough to play 3/5 NL. In fact $5k is not enough either. I think you should have well over $10k to play at that level. Good luck.

[OneByPhi]

Yes, I realized after my flop bet got called in two places that not only would the big guy have the right odds for a flush draw on the flop, but that I hadn't left myself enough behind to price a flush draw out if the turn came a blank, either. I guess I should have known rich lady would call the flop bet and just shoved post-flop. The pot was already decent-sized,so just taking it down there would have been nice, and even if the result had ended up the same, it does seem like the better move now.

Your advice on moving back down is well-taken, thanks. I will. I still make a lot of mistakes in bet-sizing, and I know I call value bets on the end more than I should. I guess I'll go back down and work on those skills til I get 10K. Thanks to both of you for your advice. Peace.