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#111
11-07-2006, 07:26 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what the point is there, but I know I didn't mention Tom Brady once in my post. but just to reply - those stats show the 2 guys have had roughly the same completion %, Brady has a much better TD:INT ratio, and Peyton has thrown for more yards per game. I'm not sure what any of that means though. [/ QUOTE ] 15-5 is not much better than 15-8, come on. [/ QUOTE ] If you take away the 2 playoff games against Bill Belichick Manning 14 TD's and 3 INT's [/ QUOTE ] and then if you take away the 2 games vs the Broncos he's thrown 5 TD's and 3 INT's. food for thought re: Peyton and the playoffs in 9 career playoff games, Manning's Colts have scored LESS than 20 points 6 times (less than 7 points twice). They've scored 38 or more the other 3 times, skewing his total stats upward (though 2 of those games were blowout wins and the 'extra' stats are really "low leverage"). In 11 career playoff games, Brady's Patriots have less than 20 only twice. Which team has had the better offense during the regular season? Which team has had the better offense during the playoffs? This isn't just about Peyton vs the Pats. Look, I think Peyton Manning is incredible. But I think people pointing to his playoffs #'s as ok or nearly as good as Brady aren't really looking at the whole picture. This doesn't mean I think he's a choker or that he'll play poorly in the playoffs this year - but it does mean he has come up short more than the once or twice a lot of people would have you believe. 
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#113
11-07-2006, 08:59 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
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I agree with your general point but c'mon - the Pats offense scored 20 points 0 times in the 2001 playoffs. [/ QUOTE ] that's true - Brady's role in 2001 is very overrated. my general point is that looking at a 60% completion rate, 2:1 TD:INT ratio, and good YPG isn't a great way to look at Peytons whole playoff resume.
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#114
11-07-2006, 09:40 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what the point is there, but I know I didn't mention Tom Brady once in my post. but just to reply - those stats show the 2 guys have had roughly the same completion %, Brady has a much better TD:INT ratio, and Peyton has thrown for more yards per game. I'm not sure what any of that means though. [/ QUOTE ] 15-5 is not much better than 15-8, come on. [/ QUOTE ] well if we are going to use 9 game sample sizes as a big piece of evidence, then yeah 3:1 is much better than 1.9:1 (but again, note that my OP did not mention Brady [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I didn't mean to imply you were comparing him to Brady, but you basically said he needs to be better in the playoffs in order to win a ring, in order to be considered great. I simply pointed out that Brady has 3 rings with very similar stats. [/ QUOTE ] yes, but you also have to realize that the offenses these guys run are/were quite different. in 2004 the Pats ran the ball into the ground to shorten the game and keep Peyton off the field. so you need to take game context into account before you just apply the stats of the 2 guys. as Pokerfink says, the Patriots were (marginally) a better team in 2003 and 2004 - they were very small favorites in both games. but as I said above, the Colts were a whole lot better in the regular season vs them (once at home, once in fine weather at Foxboro) than in the playoffs. Belicheck coached both games. I don't think you can blame it all on the weather. Part of Peytons greatness is his ability to audible and call his own plays, but imho he didn't do as good a job, in this area, in the playoffs. [/ QUOTE ] Brady has been a part of three Super Bowl champions but the pressure has never really been on him to produce the way Manning has had to given the relative state of the teams. Think of the pressure Brady felt in his first Super bowl (uh, none considering he was a 6th round pick who replaced Bledsoe mid season and basically had nothing to lose). then think of the pressure Manning is under every friggin day as a #1 pick and the de facto head coach of the Indianapolis Colts. If they switched places could you really say their careers would really have worked out at similar paths (meaning Brady truly is the better QB because of his team's results). And honestly this is not a point where you can simply pick one without regards to the situation. For me it depends on the team and what I need from the QB. If I have a team with no D and I need my QB to put 35 points on the board to win, I pick Manning bar none (basically what he's been doing since day 1 in Indy). Just look at Sunday night's game and the way Brady had to force passes because the Pats knew they didn't have a sufficient defense to stop the Colts. You saw the results. They weren't pretty for Pats fans. On the other hand if I need a QB to manage the game and be efficient on offense Brady is your guy. Basically the way they beat the Colts the first 6 or 7 times vs. Manning...
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#116
11-08-2006, 12:07 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
Do you really think that if you swap QBs for the two Indy vs. Pats playoff games the results are any different?
Trying to prove anything based on such a small sample is worthless. If Peyton is a choker, then how do you explain his blowout victories vs. the Broncos? And if Brady is such a great "big game" QB, then how do you explain the Pats only putting up 13 points against a Broncos Defense that Peyton had totally decimated in the prior two playoffs? (and again this regular season). From watching them for the past 5 years, I have come to think that while they are both great, Peyton is a bit more talented and seems to understand the game a little better. I don't think you can throw that away based on the results of two games. How can you claim that "clutch" is pretty much worthless in baseball and then say you'd take Brady over Peyton because hes more clutch?
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#117
11-08-2006, 12:29 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
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If Peyton is a choker, then how do you explain his blowout victories vs. the Broncos? [/ QUOTE ] I never said Peyton was a choker. In fact I went out of my way to say the opposite. [ QUOTE ] And if Brady is such a great "big game" QB, then how do you explain the Pats only putting up 13 points against a Broncos Defense that Peyton had totally decimated in the prior two playoffs? (and again this regular season). [/ QUOTE ] he had a bad game, as did some other Patriots [ QUOTE ] From watching them for the past 5 years, I have come to think that while they are both great, Peyton is a bit more talented and seems to understand the game a little better. I don't think you can throw that away based on the results of two games. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I was [ QUOTE ] How can you claim that "clutch" is pretty much worthless in baseball [/ QUOTE ] I have never claimed that "clutch" is pretty much worthless in baseball. I have said that I think it's overrated by most people. Anyways, football is different than baseball - I think that clutch does exist in both sports, but most people overrate it. [ QUOTE ] and then say you'd take Brady over Peyton because hes more clutch? [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I ever said I would take Brady over Peyton - I did say that he has performed better in previous playoffs. I don't think this is very important in predicting future results. I'm just trying to give you my take on how the 2 guys have performed in the past. Brady has played 'below expectation' once or twice in 11 playoff games; Peyton has performed 'below expectations' 4 or 5 times in fewer games. Again, I'm not trying to make a case for who has been better over their careers or who will do better the next playoff game - I'm just saying that Peyton has been dissapointing playoff performer up until now.
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#119
11-08-2006, 09:21 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what the point is there, but I know I didn't mention Tom Brady once in my post. but just to reply - those stats show the 2 guys have had roughly the same completion %, Brady has a much better TD:INT ratio, and Peyton has thrown for more yards per game. I'm not sure what any of that means though. [/ QUOTE ] 15-5 is not much better than 15-8, come on. [/ QUOTE ] If you take away the 2 playoff games against Bill Belichick Manning 14 TD's and 3 INT's [/ QUOTE ] and then if you take away the 2 games vs the Broncos he's thrown 5 TD's and 3 INT's. food for thought re: Peyton and the playoffs in 9 career playoff games, Manning's Colts have scored LESS than 20 points 6 times (less than 7 points twice). They've scored 38 or more the other 3 times, skewing his total stats upward (though 2 of those games were blowout wins and the 'extra' stats are really "low leverage"). In 11 career playoff games, Brady's Patriots have less than 20 only twice. Which team has had the better offense during the regular season? Which team has had the better offense during the playoffs? This isn't just about Peyton vs the Pats. Look, I think Peyton Manning is incredible. But I think people pointing to his playoffs #'s as ok or nearly as good as Brady aren't really looking at the whole picture. This doesn't mean I think he's a choker or that he'll play poorly in the playoffs this year - but it does mean he has come up short more than the once or twice a lot of people would have you believe. [/ QUOTE ] Which offense has faced more pressure to score more than 20 points. The Patriots with their defense or the Colts with theirs? You would also have to go back and figure out how many of those 20+ point games had a lot to do with a dominant defense...
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#120
11-08-2006, 09:23 PM
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Re: Peyton Manning
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You really think Brady "manages a game" better than Manning? [/ QUOTE ] What are you defining as managing a game? If you are talking about calling the plays, well then no. If you are talking about limiting mistakes and taking the easy dump offs when the situation necessitates it, then yes. Brady didn't do it the other night because the situation necessitated forcing the issue and trying to outscore the Colts. Which is exactly the situation I wouldn't want Brady. But give him the defense and little to no pressure to put up points and he's your guy. I really dont' know if Manning could switch gears and not want to be THE guy, so I default to Brady who has shown the ability to do that...
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