Oh no, every card has that heart shape on it. Oh good, I turned quads

[Jman28]

No reads at all. Pretty interesting flop and turn. I'm not sure of my actions on both streets.

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t40 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2225)
Hero (t2000)
MP1 (t1840)
MP2 (t1980)
MP3 (t1940)
CO+1 (t1940)
CO (t1940)
Button (t1840)
SB (t2295)
BB (t2000)

Preflop: Hero is in UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="red">UTG raises to t125</font>, Hero calls t125, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, MP3 calls t125, <font color="gray">CO+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

Flop: (t435) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks

Turn: (t435) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets t175</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to t400</font>, Hero... (with 1575 behind after the 400)

[Bigwig]

Why are you checking that flop? That's not good.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you checking that flop? That's not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about betting. Then I thought about checking. Then each again. I checked for a few reasons:

To avoid an awkward situation of seeing a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn with the pot the same size as my stack.
To see a safe turn and get my money in more confidently.
To check-raise all in.
To disguise my hand.

Not saying checking is correct. Just saying why I decided to.

[Paul B.]

You didn't indicate in your post what buy-in this was but I'm assuming it's a 500+30. I don't think any player at that level will put any more money in the pot on the turn or the river with a worse hand whether it's an 8, 5 or even AA/KK/JJ/TT.

But when he does have something, 88/55/flush, there's no way he's folding so I would push when the action gets back to me on the turn.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't indicate in your post what buy-in this was but I'm assuming it's a 500+30. I don't think any player at that level will put any more money in the pot on the turn or the river with a worse hand whether it's an 8, 5 or even AA/KK/JJ/TT.

But when he does have something, 88/55/flush, there's no way he's folding so I would push when the action gets back to me on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I ran out of room in the title for buyin. I think you slightly overestimate the level of play of opponents there. A select few will pay off with JJ-AA, especially with the A or K of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

As for the rest, your logic is way, way off. If he has 88/55/flush, and that's all he will pay me off with, why would pushing help much? I'll get it all on the river, or he'll push if I reraise smaller than all in.

Those hands don't matter to the outcome, so I shouldn't think of them when putting him on a range. (Except for the few times that a smaller flush may be scared by another heart or pair on the river)

I figure, besides those hands, TT-JJ is likely. AA and KK less so. He could also have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x, or a pure bluff (unlikely I think). If I push, TT-AA prolly folds, but may call. A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x will fold, and the bluffs fold. Seems like pushing misses a lot of value.

Since the most likely hands are A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x or TT-JJ, I think our options are calling or reraising small, to give them odds to hit the flush, or to grab a few more chips before a river scares them off of JJ. Both seem okay to me. I'd tend to call against a known aggro bluffer.

[Paul B.]

Nevermind what I said before, I incorrectly made assumptions I shouldn't have made about Villain checking 2 streets in a row.

[ QUOTE ]

Since the most likely hands are A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x or TT-JJ, I think our options are calling or reraising small, to give them odds to hit the flush, or to grab a few more chips before a river scares them off of JJ. Both seem okay to me. I'd tend to call against a known aggro bluffer.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I'd have to agree with your own analysis.

[MikeMcQ1]

I'm going to chime in here and maybe get some questions answered for myself. At my low buy-in levels, I would re-raise PF to 375-450 and be happy if it got all in (I play at Stars with bigger stacks like the new Party format). But at your level you can prolly narrow down the range from an UTG raise like this to a few hands.

Once the flop comes, I would think betting here, even at this level would make the most sense unless you knew UTG would bet in which case you would be CR. You don't want to see that turn card come with a heart.

So it went check-check-check...and you got a miracle on the turn, made a "weak" bet after seeing weakness from both opponents, which I like as an attempted "buy-the-pot" bet, and got exactly what you wanted--somebody telling you that you are full of it (or better yet, somebody has a made hand or AA, AK, AQ with a h).

Why not call as you could be on a flush draw and calling this raise is in line with odds to call for the flush. He has the impetus and may bet out again whether or not a heart comes on the turn. You may also get something that makes his hand better such as an A, K, J, T or heart.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to chime in here and maybe get some questions answered for myself. At my low buy-in levels, I would re-raise PF to 375-450 and be happy if it got all in (I play at Stars with bigger stacks like the new Party format). But at your level you can prolly narrow down the range from an UTG raise like this to a few hands.

Once the flop comes, I would think betting here, even at this level would make the most sense unless you knew UTG would bet in which case you would be CR. You don't want to see that turn card come with a heart.

So it went check-check-check...and you got a miracle on the turn, made a "weak" bet after seeing weakness from both opponents, which I like as an attempted "buy-the-pot" bet, and got exactly what you wanted--somebody telling you that you are full of it (or better yet, somebody has a made hand or AA, AK, AQ with a h).

Why not call as you could be on a flush draw and calling this raise is in line with odds to call for the flush. He has the impetus and may bet out again whether or not a heart comes on the turn. You may also get something that makes his hand better such as an A, K, J, T or heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good analysis Mike. I think betting the flop may be the best play, although I think checking is not bad.

I think calling the turn, as you suggested, is probably the best option for the reasons you stated.

[hoyasnaxa]

What about min-reraising him on the turn?

[bigballz]

[ QUOTE ]
What about min-reraising him on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
what about it?