100NL, KK and confused about c-betting

[Kasane]

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I want to address some different issues.

First off: "Ask yourself if you're not c-betting 22 here"
If you can't see the difference between 22 and KK, there's nothing anyone can do to help you. (Even besides the obvious)
When you cbet with 22, you really expect a lot of better hands to fold. When you cbet with KK, no better hands fold. That's why cbetting with 22 is a much better situation than cbetting with KK here.

Next, for those advocating cbetting because "checking lets him take the pot from us." What do you do if he calls your cbet? Do you give up?

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Are you saying you'd cbet 22 and chk/fold the KK??? I hope not. That's my reason for saying 22 is more or less equivalent with KK here in this spot.

That's why I said KK might... might be worthy of a c/c line on the flop. That's the only other alternative. It's just not as good, though potentially feasible against some opponents, as just betting out. It's not as much of a cbet as 22, because we've got more equity -- if you want to think of it in those terms. It's not as if we whiffed, if that's what we're terming a cbet, it's just that a scary card, the only really scary card, came on the flop.

[Lurker.]

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When you cbet with KK, no better hands fold.



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sure, but a lot of worse hands call.

[DaycareInferno]

i don't understand why people get so hung up on only getting called by better hands. the bottom line is, if you can make a bet that shows a profit, that bet is better than dumping your hand, period. the only time you should really worry about scenarios where you allow your opponent to play perfectly is when you are debating between a line which involves raising and a line that involves calling.

lets say you are playing against in this exact hand against an opponent who has a vp$ of 100 and the magical ability to make perfect decisions at every opportunity. he folds to bets when he is behind and he raises when he is ahead. do you dump your hand on the flop because you'll only get called by a better hand? no, of course not, because there are so many worse hands that you're still making something out of betting, and something is better than nothing.

it is also not true that no pfr is going to check out with top pair. i do it quite often when i have top pair with a marginal kicker. i do it quite often, because i'm going to call as opposed to dumping my hand. in that situation, those concepts actually apply, because i'm passing up a + for a bigger +, as opposed to passing up a + for a 0. i think most strong players have the ability to play marginal hands in the dark from time to time as opposed to dumping them or playing them like blanks.

[Lurker.]

this thread is a trainwreck and would confuse anyone who has trouble playing in these spots. if you have trouble in these spots, DO NOT READ THIS THREAD

[Gustav]

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I can't imagine cbetting here, I think it's terrible. I check every street.

My basic pattern here is check flop, then;
Fold to a full pot bet or ~90%+.
Call a reasonable bet.

Fold turn if he bets significantly more than he bet on the flop.
Call if he bets the same as on the flop or slightly more.

Same on river, but expect to lose when I call.

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Really? That's pretty gross

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Which part?

[hanover]

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I can't imagine cbetting here, I think it's terrible. I check every street.

My basic pattern here is check flop, then;
Fold to a full pot bet or ~90%+.
Call a reasonable bet.

Fold turn if he bets significantly more than he bet on the flop.
Call if he bets the same as on the flop or slightly more.

Same on river, but expect to lose when I call.

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Really? That's pretty gross

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Which part?

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Ummm ... all of it?

[Kasane]

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This is identical to the hand I posted last last night/this morning.

I 3bet KK OOP and Axx flop. Betting the flop is pretty bad here, as long as you're mixing up your play and ck'ing AK and AA on occasion. I don't see how betting here is right...all we are doing is turning our hand into a bluff, plain and simple.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post11276829

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SFC, the range is quite a bit tighter in a 3bet hand. Not saying checking the flop is right there or not in that one.

[TheRenaissance]

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Check/folding here is the worst way you could possibly play this - what horrible advice.

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[maccamack]

C/R Flop

[RatFink]

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C/R Flop

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Yeah, and CheckRaise all in to really put him to the test...

.. and then bust out 3rd in the Main Event for no reason at all.

Hardly a great play.

Check-raising doesn't do anything for you but put chips in the middle that you can't control on the turn.