HU against a tricky player: A drama in several acts

AKQJ10 · #1 08-26-2006, 04:12 PM

Prologue

This is going to be a bit long, but hopefully it will be rewarding not just to me. And no, I haven't been on a This American Life kick or anything.

Lately I've had a tendency to lose a lot of money through "suspicious" heads-up play involving blind stealing. Example: I raise AQ first in on the button, BB reraises me, I think "He must be thinking I don't have a hand and restealing," so I get all-in against KK. To cure myself, I'm trying hard to adhere to this rule of thumb: a three-bet is usually the goods.

But I'm always afraid of being run over by tricky players....

Advice to myself

Move!

Seriously, there's no reason to go on playing with unpredictable players unless they're real donks about it. If a player is tough to read, there will be plenty who are easy to read.

But it's always tempting to hang around and try to get the best of tricky opponents. It's part machismo, part intellectual exercise. I'd like to think I could outplay someone like this even if I don't always need to.

Hand the First: A supernatural read

I don't think this call was standard, and I'm honestly not sure what tipped me off that Villain (SB) would try this. Persistently calling here is certainly a leak, right? But I'm including the results, they matter later on.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $84.15
UTG+1: $53.85
MP1: $109.15
MP2: $79.75
CO: $95.10
Button: $16.50
SB: $119.90
Hero: $23.50

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($3, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($3, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, CO folds, SB calls.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($7, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB raises to $10, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $27
SB showed Qs Kc
Hero showed Qd Js

Hand the Second: Villain Gets Frisky Again

Three hands later. Villain is now MP2.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $94.65
UTG+1: $93.10
MP1: $16.50
MP2: $109.40
Hero: $31.15
Button: $72.65
SB: $52.85
BB: $109.15

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($9.5, 2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $5, MP2 raises to $10

I'll break it here before moving on to another hand. How do you play this?

MyTurn2Raise · #2 08-26-2006, 04:17 PM

I bet more on the flop in hand 2

Your bet looks like a weak lead.

As is, I just push. You don't have enough money behind, $22 (?!!!!!!!!!), to do much else. The Villain has been taking shots at you. You have TP2K and backdoor nut flush draw.

Dot_the_Bot · #3 08-27-2006, 06:11 AM

First hand- I screwed up and read the results!...but I think I can comment non-biased anyway. When I am goofing around shortstacked, I would check the turn intending to c/r a bet from a late pos. bettor that is likely pos. betting, and fold to a TAG bet. If checked around, I'd fire pot on the river.

Second hand- I probably raise more PF and maybe push the flop.

Im not sure if that is at all correct- I reserve the right to be completely off my rocker with short stack play, but I look at it like Im always bluffing, never betting for value-since both pot commit me.

Then as my stack grows, I tighten up while the table loosens.

matrix · #4 08-27-2006, 10:21 AM

Why the short stack?

hand 2 lead flop for ~2/3+. ~1/2pot is just too weak - as played push em in.

Playng a SS we want to see a flop make a decent hand and get the money in while we are likely ahead TP2K with a draw is plenty big enough here.

recipro · #5 08-27-2006, 10:36 AM

In hand 2, you have $9 in the center, you have top pair 2nd kicker, and you only started with 31 big blinds.

Is there even a decision here? Do your best to get the money into the center.

AKQJ10 · #6 08-27-2006, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why the short stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I suck at poker. Seriously, I don't know if I can beat the 50c/$1, but I'm pretty sure I can make good enough preflop and flop decisions to stay alive.

[ QUOTE ]

hand 2 lead flop for ~2/3+. ~1/2pot is just too weak

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to both CB and value bet good hands this way. Then I got to rereading Harrington and thinking about how the 1/2 pot CB offers 2:1 odds and probably chases out as many people with nothing -- so I started CBing and value betting less. But maybe that means I'm losing value when my value bets are this small, so I'm open to rethinking it.

AKQJ10 · #7 08-27-2006, 11:34 AM

"First hand- I screwed up and read the results!" -- You didn't screw up, the first hand was mostly presented for context. You're certainly welcome to comment on it, too, but I'm really just tracking several hands with the same player for reasons that will hopefully become clear as I post more of the hands.

AKQJ10 · #8 08-27-2006, 11:52 AM

Hand the Second (cont'd)

As I thought, there was really nothing to do but push-3-bet that AQ hand. Here's how it panned out:

Stack sizes:
UTG: $94.65
UTG+1: $93.10
MP1: $16.50
MP2: $109.40
Hero: $31.15
Button: $72.65
SB: $52.85
BB: $109.15

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($9.5, 2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $5, MP2 raises to $10, Hero raises all-in $27.15, MP2 calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($63.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $63.8)

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($63.8, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $63.8)

Results:
Final pot: $63.8
MP2 showed 8h Ad
Hero showed Qd As

I felt sorta stupid here, because:

<ul type="square">[*]After I made that river call in Hand #1, I couldn't resist making some -EV and self-aware comment like, "Never bluff a donk."[*]Villain is apparently a thinking player capable of at least Level 2.[*]Villain certainly knows that I'm aware he bluffs.[*]Villain showed aggression anyway.[/list]
So with all that, the outcome wasn't too surprising. Still, that's poker, and given the stack sizes I think he made a terribly loose call and got lucky to spike a three-outer (and even luckier we also flopped an ace). A no-brainer push there, but still I felt somewhat pwned.

Hands the Third, Fourth, Fifth: Background only

This is just for background. A few hands later I steal-raised on the button with Q8o, got called, and won with a CB.

Then on my next button, uber-short-stacked because I forgot to reload, I picked up AA, got a calls from the Villain (who limped from the cutoff) and the SB, and doubled through Villain when he flopped top pair of tens with QTo.

Very next hand, I caught KK versus QQ (and JTs) and 2.5ed-up. Villain wasn't involved.

Very next hand after the kings, I get AQ and make top pair (rivering trips) which I play semi-passive-aggressively and win at showdown. Again Villain's not involved. At this point I'm certainly showing good hands.

Now we get to the [anti]climactic hand, but I can't find it in my PT db and I need to run to the 2+2 CT home game. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] So thanks for reading thus far, and I'll post it when I get home.

matrix · #9 08-27-2006, 11:59 AM

Harrington is talking about tournament play not cash table play. They're similar but a 2/3 pot bet is better than a half pot bet - it has more FE when you are bluffing and gets you more value for value betting. (see recent Cow Tipping thread)

You want to get all-in on this flop. With that small a stack it's a no brainer I think.

Can you beat any level of SSNL with 100BB stacks?
25/50/100NL seem much of a muchness - as you move up there are more "sharks" and less fish - identify the "sharks" and keep out of their way without great hands - stack the fishies by playing ABC straightforward TAG poker.

AKQJ10 · #10 08-27-2006, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you beat any level of SSNL with 100BB stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I can beat 25, and it's likely I can beat 50. I may be better than 100 as well, but I've been running a little bad and tend to be conservative with bankroll when my ability to beat a certain stakes isn't established. Maybe too conservative.

I'm also balancing the twin goals of bankroll-building and "learning to play NLHE." Sometimes I play $25 full stacked (6-max or FR), sometimes I play $100 short-stacked. Not that you care, but my work situation is extremely flexible, so I expect to be faced with "Do I code today or do I play poker?" sorts of decisions -- maybe not at the $100s, but if I can grind at the $200s or higher. But I had some tough luck clearing bonuses at the $200s so that's why I'm playing at these stakes now.

[ QUOTE ]
25/50/100NL seem much of a muchness - as you move up there are more "sharks" and less fish - identify the "sharks" and keep out of their way without great hands - stack the fishies by playing ABC straightforward TAG poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not familiar with that phrase -- you're saying 25/50/100 aren't all that different, just the shark/fish ratio?