Question about legit vs illegitimate businesses

[doucy]

It is the position of ACists that in the long run, illegitimate businesses cannot compete with legit businesses. An illegitimate business being one that relies on violence, theft, or defrauding customers in order to make money (other things too, but those would be the main three, I'd think). Makes sense.

But then logically, it should follow that all illegitimate governments will ultimately fail, as they rely on taxing the citizenry (theft), among other things. And history will show that all illegitimae governments DO ultimately fail.

To me, the problem arises with the word "ultimately." Governments can take the better part of a millenium before they finally go under. If an illegitimate government can last that long, why can't an illegitimate private company last that long?

Seems to me that if the mafia has me by the balls, and it won't let go until my great great great grandchildren finally come around, then this really isn't much different from a place where I have to pay 35% of my income for the government to leave me alone.

[tomdemaine]

Are you pro illegitimate people taking your money or anti it?

[AWoodside]

The governments monopoly on the use of coercive violence exists because the people under it believe that this is a desirable state of affairs. If we ever reach a point where people don't believe this we will quickly see the powers of 'illegitimate' organizations wane.

[Phil153]

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If an illegitimate government can last that long, why can't an illegitimate private company last that long?

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They can and they do, especially where governments are weak or non existent.

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It is the position of ACists that in the long run, illegitimate businesses cannot compete with legit businesses.

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This is another in a long list of AC silliness. If the core business of illegitimate businesses is run as any other business, but they use threats, intimidation, collusion, kidnappings, and so on in order to get what they want, get favorable deals, gain monopoly in an area, and so on, then there's no reason they can't prosper. This is how the mafia works today, and it's very successful at it, but of course kept in control by the government.

I am curious as to how ACers think an ethical company is more profitable than an unethical one, especially in a world where suppliers are often anonymous to the end purchaser (hence, no arguments from reputation).

Tom,

you seem to be missing the point that government (and those in them) are under the universal rule of law. Their use of force has a very different kind of legitimacy to that of the mafia, operating under their own whim and constrained by no moral or ethical code.

[tomdemaine]

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Tom,

you seem to be missing the point that government (and those in them) are under the universal rule of law. Their use of force has a very different kind of legitimacy to that of the mafia, operating under their own whim and constrained by no moral or ethical code.

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Actually the mafia have a pretty strong ethical code (snitching is evil respect the family etc). I don't understand what a "universal rule of law" is or how you think that anyone in the government is constrained by anything other than what we let them get away with. The OP knows that the government is illegitimate he just hasn't made the leap to take a stand on principle and say, lets deal with this form of illegitimate force now and if it doesn't take and another government reforms we'll deal with that form too, which is fair enough because there's enough propaganda out there to make that leap incredibly difficult. It's another story of "but what if we get back to the current situation wouldn't that be terrible?" Implicit in that statement is a rejection of the state. You just have to see it. I'm not trying to be condescending here it took me ages to come to the that logical conclusion it's tough to see those who taught you as at best misguided and at worst malicious liars.

[ShakeZula06]

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If an illegitimate government can last that long, why can't an illegitimate private company last that long?

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They can and they do, especially where governments are weak or non existent.

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Last time I checked governments are by definition the anti-thesis of "weak or non-existent" in all black markets and they just happen to be the areas where both illegitimate businesses and violence thrive.

Wierd how that works, isn't it?
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This is another in a long list of AC silliness. If the core business of illegitimate businesses is run as any other business, but they use threats, intimidation, collusion, kidnappings, and so on in order to get what they want, get favorable deals, gain monopoly in an area, and so on, then there's no reason they can't prosper. This is how the mafia works today, and it's very successful at it, but of course kept in control by the government.

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Explain to me why it was only during prohibition that the mob dominated the alcohol market then. I guess I'm just silly for knowing how to put two and two together.
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I am curious as to how ACers think an ethical company is more profitable than an unethical one, especially in a world where suppliers are often anonymous to the end purchaser (hence, no arguments from reputation).

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Uh, outiside of rare cases this isn't realistic. Reputation and competition is the whole point of why a market works.

I am curious as to how you think an elected government official will see it in his best interests to act ethically rather then unethically.

[pvn]

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If an illegitimate government can last that long, why can't an illegitimate private company last that long?

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They can and they do, especially where governments are weak or non existent.

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More often, they flourish where governments are strong. Mercantilishm FTW.


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This is how the mafia works today, and it's very successful at it, but of course kept in control by the government.

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LOL. THe mafia only comes into being when governments impose prohibition.

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I am curious as to how ACers think an ethical company is more profitable than an unethical one, especially in a world where suppliers are often anonymous to the end purchaser (hence, no arguments from reputation).

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If the violence-based business model is so much better than the voluntary transactions-based business model, why does the mob restrict itself to contraband? Why doesn't it compete in the soda market, or the ice cream market? Why, when it DOES compete head-to-head with legitimate businesses (cf alcohol distribution before and after prohibition), does it invariably lose?

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you seem to be missing the point that government (and those in them) are under the universal rule of law. Their use of force has a very different kind of legitimacy to that of the mafia, operating under their own whim and constrained by no moral or ethical code.

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LOL. "it's not bad when the guys I like do it."

[Richard Tanner]

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LOL. THe mafia only comes into being when governments impose prohibition.


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This is true of black markets but not the Mafia. The Mafia is a group of people that are powerful enough to extort another group of people. Black markets created by government prohibitions fuel Mafias no doubt, but a Mafia is just a group of guys with guns and subsequently power.

Cody

[pvn]

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This is true of black markets but not the Mafia. The Mafia is a group of people that are powerful enough to extort another group of people. Black markets created by government prohibitions fuel Mafias no doubt, but a Mafia is just a group of guys with guns and subsequently power.

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But violence itself doesn't scale. There are no nationwide networks of, for example, purse snatchers, or kidnappers, or bank robbers. It is only when prohibition creates black markets that large-scale organized "crime" can emerge.

[Richard Tanner]

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This is true of black markets but not the Mafia. The Mafia is a group of people that are powerful enough to extort another group of people. Black markets created by government prohibitions fuel Mafias no doubt, but a Mafia is just a group of guys with guns and subsequently power.

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But violence itself doesn't scale. There are no nationwide networks of, for example, purse snatchers, or kidnappers, or bank robbers. It is only when prohibition creates black markets that large-scale organized "crime" can emerge.

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Isn't the government just a "large-scale organized "crime"" network. I mean it's taken 200+ years but saying "violence doesn't scale" seems awfully shortsighted.

I doubt seriously that it would take a government machine to create it, just time and money.

Cody