NLTRN $20 Hand dump

TNixon · #1 05-02-2007, 07:22 PM

I just spent some time going through hand histories from yesterday, and wanted to get input on them. Basically, I'm looking at any hand where I won or lost more than 300 chips over 4-5 tournaments, so it's going to be a fairly large dump.

After writing that, I decided that typing comments where I feel they're necessary is taking long enough that it's going to take me a while to work through multiple tourneys, so just one at a time. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My style: I've tended towards a much more patient, trappy style than what I'm seeing most of the other players playing, primarily because I do see so many people playing extremely aggressive. I'm even intentionally fostering a semi-weak/tight image early on, letting them steal lots of pots, so I can take down the ones that matter, which lets me bluff in spots and get people to lay down hands that I wouldn't be able to get away with otherwise, while I wait for cards that can take down huge pots.

I have absolutely no idea if it's a good idea to play this way, but it seems to be working out at least fairly well so far. My win rate is not where I'd like it to be (I'm currently somewhere around 56-58% at the $20s and $30s, but closer to 65% at $10 and below), but I feel like I'm still improving my game, so I'm not horribly concerned about that.

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Villan 1: This guy seems pretty straightforward for the most part and un-tricky. However, he does seem to like to minbet a *lot* of flops, and over the course of the tourney I fold to enough of them (especially minbets into unraised pots, I do try to take back some of the raised pots) that I'm pretty sure a good percentage of his min bets on the flop are just cheap continuations. Of course, he bets the same when he has something, so I don't want to put a bunch of chips in *every* time he does it, but I try to push back with enough frequency that I'm staying even.

I don't feel like he's likely to make big bluffs, although it's hard to say for sure, since I haven't really had opportunity to call any of his bigger bets.
*************************

Hand #1:
----------------------------------
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1540
Hero: t1460

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB raises to t40, Hero raises to t120, SB raises to t230, Hero calls t80 (pot was t280).

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t460, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t20, Hero calls t20 (pot was t480).

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t500, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t20, Hero calls t20 (pot was t520).

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t540, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t120, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t120 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: t540

This was the third hand in the tournament, so although I probably could have (and maybe should have), I didn't want to put it all in with AQ, not really having any idea what sort of hands he's going to be reraising with.

Obviously just calling the minbets is a little weak, but I feel like he's either on a flush draw, an 8 or a 9, or more likely something like 55 or 66. If I'm right, I can probably push him off his hand, but maybe not, so I'm just looking to hit an ace or a queen for the minbets. Once I miss, I feel like the bigger bet on the end represents some sort of minor hit that, again, I might be able to push him off, but it's only the third hand, and I don't really have any idea what any of these mean yet. Which is actually maybe a pretty good arugment for spending 120 chips here on the end, I dunno. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand #2:
----------------------------------
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t15/t30
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1160
BB: t1840

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero calls t15 (pot was t45), BB raises to t60, Hero calls t30 (pot was t60).

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t120, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t120, BB calls t120 (pot was t240).

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t360, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t360, 2 players)
BB bets t360, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t360 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t360

Hand #3:
----------------------------------
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t20/t40
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t780
BB: t2220

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t120, BB calls t80 (pot was t140).

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t240, 2 players)
BB bets t40, Hero calls t40 (pot was t280).

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t320, 2 players)
BB bets t40, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t320

At this point, I still had no idea what his min-bets meant, and even if he has hit some part of this, I'm getting pot odds for a one-ended draw and an over (which almost never happens, but since he was giving it to me, I didn't want to give him a chance to reraise me off the draw). With the second flush possibility on the turn, I didn't really have any idea where he was at, didn't want to put more chips to find out, and didn't have any idea which of my outs (if any) would be good even if they came, so I gave it up.

The weak part of my table image is only part act though. I tend to be very reluctant to continue to put chips into a pot where I don't have anything at all, unless I'm fairly sure the other player has nothing as well, or a weak enough hand that I can push him off. But for all I know, ace-high might have been good here. I feel playing this way lets me buy pots when I really need to, such as in the middle of a really dry spell, but maybe that's just my justification for being a pansy and folding too much? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand #4:
----------------------------------
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t700
BB: t2300

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t150, BB calls t100 (pot was t175).

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t300, 2 players)
BB bets t50, Hero raises all-in t550, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t500 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t400

I realized about half a second after I bet all-in how stupid this one was. Very few hands are calling here, I think, and almost all of them contain a jack. Most pockets are probably going to reraise me preflop, and if I think the kings are good (which they're going to be almost all the time), they're likely to stay good except against some sort of freaky-luckbox, so I should probably be stringing along here, maybe just calling, or certainly making a smaller raise if I'm going to raise at all?

Hand 5:
----------------------------------
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t925
BB: t2075

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls t25 (pot was t75), BB raises to t100, Hero calls t50 (pot was t100).

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t200, 2 players)
BB bets t50, Hero raises to t200, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t150 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t300

At this point, he had been raising a fair number of my limps, and this felt like a good time to push back a little bit and maybe get some breathing space. Being down 2-to-1, I really feel like I want to see a lot of flops cheaply, and if he raises every time I limp, I can't do that, so I end up playing a lot of hands for more than I want to play them for preflop. Obviously it worked out, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid move. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hand 6:
----------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1125
BB: t1875

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t150, BB calls t100 (pot was t175).

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t300, 2 players)
BB bets t50, Hero calls t50 (pot was t350).

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t400, 2 players)
BB bets t50, Hero raises to t250, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t200 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t500

Hand 7:
----------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t30/t60
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1585
BB: t1415

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to t180, BB raises to t300, Hero calls t120 (pot was t390).

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t600, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t400, BB calls t400 (pot was t1000).

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t1400, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero is all-in t885, BB calls all-in t715.
Uncalled bets: t170 returned to Hero.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t2830, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: t2830)

Results:
Final pot: t2830

Final question: many thanks to anybody who has the time to look over these and comment. I tried to reduce it as much as I could, by only including the most significant pots, but since I'm trying to get a feel for the overall play, would it be more useful to dump the entire tourney? Would anybody even bother poring over it if I did? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Raiseren1 · #2 05-03-2007, 05:40 AM

Hand 1: I think you played this correct. Maybe reraise more preflop, since your oop.

Hand 2: Check behind flop. Some times he has a a monster, like 3 jacks and is going to check-raise you. You have a great hand to bush him. Check and take the free card.

Hand 3: I hate these hands as well. But I am pretty sure that he has a weakish holding. A small pair probably. Raise turn seems like a good idea.

Hand 4: Call flop. This is WA/WB situation. No draws on board. Call him and let him do the betting, and hope he makes which he has done earlier. I want a cheap showdown. And I assume that he is not ganna bet big @ river afther we have raised. He will usualy check.a big river bet. I am going broke with 2 kings here.

Hand 5: I raise preflop here to 125. Unless he is super loose and aggressive.

Hand 6: I minraise turn. two reasons: 1) For value. He probably has a weak hand like JQ, 8x. 2) I do not wanna face a big river bet,

Hand 7: Again I check behind flop. I may give a free card to him. But he probably only has 6 outs. But I dont wanna go broke if he has Aj,66,22,QQ-AA. If checks turn as well, I bet around 250. If he check-raises I can now fold, since he is not tricky, and probably is not raising as a bluff. If he calls I probably check behind as well. He is not going to call another river bet with AQ,AK, and I am pretty sure that he would have bet a hand like Jt,JQ, 88-TT. IF we bet river we are also committed to call a check-push since we have more than ½ of our stacks in the pot.

soop · #3 05-03-2007, 12:07 PM

Ah minbettors. They are sometimes hard to play against even if it seems like it can't be a viable strategy. I like to call almost every min bet and then bluff when draws hit on the river. But the most important thing is to not fold to the min bets more than like 30% of the time.

On to the hands:

Hand 1: Raise more OOP. Otherwise, I think you played it fine. Once you just call the flop, I don't think a raise is believable, so I wouldn't try to push him off the hand.

Hand 2: If this is the first time he's checked after raising, check behind. If he's done it before, I make a half pot bet because I don't want to let him check down a winning hand like K or A high with no resistance.

Hand 3: Call. I wouldn't raise - I think min bettors expect people to try to push them off their hands, so they call a lot lighter.

Hand 4: Call. I'm going broke here if he has a J every time. At least get him to make another min bet on the turn. I would raise the river.

Hand 5: This works well, especially if you've been folding a lot. So in this case, it was a good play. I don't think you should be folding to those minbets very often though, so I would call here and make my move later in the hand.

Hand 6: Call. Use your reads to determine whether he is capable of bluffing the river. If you don't have any reads, raising the turn is fine.

Hand 7: Standard. I'm going broke here in a raised and reraised pot every time. (Villian seems to reraise with a wide range)

TNixon · #4 05-03-2007, 01:44 PM

Since hand 7 was the only one that went to showdown, here are the results:

BB shows AA, takes a monster pot, Hero is screwed with only 3 big blinds remaining, and sputters out a few hands later.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Knowing what he had, I don't know if I really could have got away from it. He's almost certainly going to bet the turn, and when I catch a flush draw to go with my top pair, I'm almost certainly going to call, if not just raise all-in anyway, thinking there's a fair chance I have the best hand (although certainly not as good a chance as I thought at the time), and having lots of ways to make it if I don't already.

Of course, given my read on the player at that point, that he was pretty straightforward, it probably should have been a no-brainer to know I was probably behind after he called the first 400 bet, taken the free card on the turn, and folded the river after I missed a K, J, or heart.

There are many reasons my winrate is below 60, and I'm pretty sure things like that are part of it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Raiseren1 · #5 05-03-2007, 04:10 PM

Tnixon: THat why betting 400 is not a very good play. He seems like the guy who checks good holdings. Minibet relatively weaks holding, and bet bigger with decent/good hands on the river. But when you bet 400 you have pretty much commited you self. When you hit the flush draw on the turn, you have to go broke. But if you did not, I would just call him down, and probably fold facing a big bet. Another option is betting very light for information and value. Let say 100-150 on the flop. If he calls, around 200 on the turn. Fold to a big river bet, and check behind if he calls turn. Remember to play a small pot with a small hand. You play big pot with a relatively weak hand.

TNixon · #6 05-03-2007, 05:00 PM

Hmm. I'm still wrestling with that a little.

There are clearly some hands that still have me beat on that flop, but there are also a fair number of hands he could have that I've pulled ahead of with the jack, that I don't want to give free cards to. If I check behind and a queen or an ace comes, I'm going to feel like a complete retard. Is a 2/3 pot bet really out of line when you've caught top pair good kicker?

I think the all-in when I caught the flush draw was clearly a mistake, given the fact that he called the inital 400. I was either behind drawing to either 8 or 14 outs, or I was ahead, and he was drawing slim.

But was that initial bet really a big mistake? We're already playing a big pot just based on the preflop action, and to me, top pair doesn't look so weak that I feel I should check behind. In fact, I'm more likely to want to protect it against overcards. In which case a smaller bet on this flop might be more appropriate, but I try not to vary my bet sizes too much, to avoid giving away information, so if I'd made a smaller bet there, it would have been instantly suspicious, meaning I have no clue how to react to anything he does.

And at the $20 level, is a smaller bet really going to buy me any information at all? Especially against somebody who frequently minbets with air? (something I discovered after calling a few of them down with weak pairs)

He didn't reraise preflop often enough to get any sort of idea what he might really be holding, but something like AK-AT, KQ, and most pairs doesn't seem unreasonable, and I've pulled ahead of well over half of those just by catching the jack.

Please don't misunderstand my tone here. I'm trying to understand, not to argue amd say what I did was the right thing. Obviously checking behind would have been the best given this particular holding, but is it really going to be best given most of his possible holdings?

TNixon · #7 05-03-2007, 05:07 PM

After rereading your inital response to that hand, I think I'm starting to understand a little bit more.

I was betting to protect my hand, or even to just take the pot down right there, but the hands that my hand wanted protection against (anything with overcards) were already drawing pretty slim, and would be more likely to bluff later streets than to call my bet anyway.

Which pretty much just leaves me playing against the hands that beat me, even though there don't seem to really be that many.

No matter what happens, I'm clearly going to lose some number of chips, especially once I catch the flush draw, but it doesn't necessarily need to be *all* my chips.

Does that about sum it up?

Now I just have to figure out if I have it in me to not auto-bet when I think there's a good chance that I have the best hand. Obviously I didn't have the best hand here, but I think a lot of the time, I would.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TNixon · #8 05-03-2007, 05:54 PM

Another quick question:

A couple of these hands (2 & 7), I had bet the flop after the preflop raiser checked, where you recommended checking behind. The first time I flopped a flush draw, the second I flopped top pair and went broke against AA.

*Most* of the time, if I have anything at all, any sort of draw, overcards, underpair, whatever, I'm going to bet when somebody who raised preflop OOP checks to me. Obviously I'm giving them the opportunity to trap me by just calling, or even checkraise, but in these cases, I'm going to have outs to pull ahead.

Now that I'm writing all this, it seems so obvious that I should have read both of those checks as at least semi-strong, since this guy obviously had no qualms about continuation betting or even just min-betting most boards with nothing at all, or very weak holdings.

What I'm wondering is if that's more generally true, and if the fact that I bet any sort of hand of hand or draw 100% of the time when checked to in position is causing me to bleed chips. Even though I don't choose tons of spots to bet with air, I don't *have* to have a hand to bet the flop in position, but if I do have a hand, I'm pretty sure my bet percentage is pretty near 100%

I might have to throw together some quick perl to scan my hand histories for situations like this, see how often I'm losing chips, and how much. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Austiger · #9 05-03-2007, 10:30 PM

hand 3 you're getting 9-1. I can't see folding that.

Indiana · #10 05-07-2007, 01:10 PM

1-Flat call preflop. Any 2 unpaired cards are worth less than the position that he has on you.

2-Ok

3-Push flop, certainly dont fold turn

4-Dont push make it 150 more. You need $ from this hand

5-I hate this, you aren't deep enough

6-Raise flop, actually just shove flop

7-I like

Indy