should i mkaybe semibluff somewhere or is this great success

[Ampelmann]

[ QUOTE ]
AQo can be folded from OOP even preflop if someone 3-bets and it’s going to be HU

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding to the 3-bet preflop would be terrible. In case you didn't notice, this is limit HE.

[hold_em]

You played it well. Any raise by you in my opinion is a losing play in the long run.

[Low Limit Loser]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW, so many opprotunities.

1. What are his 3 betting pf standards. Probably pretty tight at this level.

2. So I feel we are behind and probably WAY BEHIND

IF VILLAIN IS ABC PLAYER, The only hand that villain can have that making a play can work against is AK. If YOU (not me) want to make a play agaisnt AK, Bet the flop. Hope for just a call and bet all the way unless an A or K falls. Fold to a raise.

Generally however, I save my SB's and BB's for a different hand. Domination here is menacing. I'll C/R this guy next time I get a flop to my liking.

LLL

[ablick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AQo can be folded from OOP even preflop if someone 3-bets and it’s going to be HU, but at these limits call might be in order, but I wouldn’t consider folding preflop as a bad move either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise/folding preflop almost always sucks in LHE and this isn't even close to an exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you let me know the range of hands that our opponent could have?

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 70.7633 % 70.21% 00.62% { JJ+, AKs }
Hand 2: 29.2367 % 28.64% 00.62% { AQo }

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I realize pokerstove equities aren't everything, but you're winning almost 1/3 of the time even against the tightest range you could reasonably give an unknown. And you're getting 6:1. Surely being OOP and possibly dominated isn't going to cut your EV in HALF. A more realistic, but still tight range:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 68.4751 % 65.16% 03.31% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 31.5249 % 28.21% 03.31% { AQo }

[/ QUOTE ]

[ablick]

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[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 70.7633 % 70.21% 00.62% { JJ+, AKs }
Hand 2: 29.2367 % 28.64% 00.62% { AQo }

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I realize pokerstove equities aren't everything, but you're winning almost 1/3 of the time even against the tightest range you could reasonably give an unknown. And you're getting 6:1. Surely being OOP and possibly dominated isn't going to cut your EV in HALF. A more realistic, but still tight range:

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 68.4751 % 65.16% 03.31% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 31.5249 % 28.21% 03.31% { AQo }

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I would put the villain on same hand range as you do (I just needed to check that we are on the same range).

With high probability we are behind preflop, so we need to catch some cards to win this hand. Like you said, those Pokerstove percentages won’t tell the whole truth. I believe those apply only if we are able to see all the five cards and the problem is that there are many times that we don’t have enough odds to proceed further than the flop (like probably this hand described above). Also if we get the A or Q from the flop, we’ll still be behind every now and then and we will pay off our opponent, because our top pair is quite hard to lay down HU. Another thing is that if MP1 has something like TT or JJ and A hits the flop, it should be quite easy to figure out that at this point you are most likely behind the EP raiser and you (MP1) should be facing an easy fold.

But I’m not saying that I disagree with you, I’m just saying that AQo is maybe the most difficult hand to play in hold ‘em and you could easily make big mistakes with it in situations like this and if someone would fold this hand here preflop, I still don’t think that he/she would be making a big mistake or even a mistake at all. I think that playing this hand here with EV+ requires really good skills on the flop and on later streets and quite many players at these limits don’t have that yet and they would be better off if they would lay this hand down here preflop.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I would put the villain on same hand range as you do (I just needed to check that we are on the same range).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was making it as tight as humanly possible just to make a point. Not many people 3bet tighter than this, but a lot of people 3bet looser so this is sort of an upper bound on his range.

[ QUOTE ]
Like you said, those Pokerstove percentages won’t tell the whole truth. I believe those apply only if we are able to see all the five cards and the problem is that there are many times that we don’t have enough odds to proceed further than the flop (like probably this hand described above).

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but you also stand to make money on average when you do hit one of your cards and it's good so that mitigates this concern somewhat.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that playing this hand here with EV+ requires really good skills on the flop and on later streets and quite many players at these limits don’t have that yet and they would be better off if they would lay this hand down here preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I don't agree that a learning player should make clearly -EV folds just because they're learning. It creates bad habits, and if you're going to fold hands you should play you're giving yourself less practice and therefore further stunting your learning process. Second, raising and folding for one bet preflop is so damaging to your table image that even in the rare occasions a call is -EV I call anyway just so people won't get any ideas.

[ablick]

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I would put the villain on same hand range as you do (I just needed to check that we are on the same range).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I was making it as tight as humanly possible just to make a point. Not many people 3bet tighter than this, but a lot of people 3bet looser so this is sort of an upper bound on his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think that it’s still quite tight to 3-bet EP raiser with 99 or AJ? If that’s your opinion of tight play, how loose are you? I would say that range you gave us is average players 3-betting range against EP raiser. AJo is pretty much garbage against EP raiser (you can call with AJs). If you add 99 to the range you gave, according to Sklansky and Malmuth, that’s considered loose, but then again what do they know. Or are you saying that 99 is the thin line between “as tight as humanly possible” and loose? Like I earlier pointed out, this is unknown player to us and everybody else respected his reraise, so how are you able define this player as a pretty loose?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Like you said, those Pokerstove percentages won’t tell the whole truth. I believe those apply only if we are able to see all the five cards and the problem is that there are many times that we don’t have enough odds to proceed further than the flop (like probably this hand described above).

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but you also stand to make money on average when you do hit one of your cards and it's good so that mitigates this concern somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my previous post I already explained this and why especially A kills the action quite often if we’re not still behind.

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I think that playing this hand here with EV+ requires really good skills on the flop and on later streets and quite many players at these limits don’t have that yet and they would be better off if they would lay this hand down here preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I don't agree that a learning player should make clearly -EV folds just because they're learning. It creates bad habits, and if you're going to fold hands you should play you're giving yourself less practice and therefore further stunting your learning process. Second, raising and folding for one bet preflop is so damaging to your table image that even in the rare occasions a call is -EV I call anyway just so people won't get any ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's valid reason to make the call, just to get the experience about these tough situations on later streets, even IF this play is EV- to you. At these nano-limits, you don’t have a table image, 99% of players at this level are not making any notes of how the opponents are playing.