NL25 -- draws owned me

[gedanken]

SB is loose passive
Button is more TAGGish
MP can be expected to call pre

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from

FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($25)
UTG ($25.30)
MP ($10.75)
CO ($15.85)
Button ($34.50)
SB ($6.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1.5</font>, SB calls $1.40, Hero calls $1.25, MP calls $1.25, CO folds.

Flop: ($6.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $1</font>, Hero calls $1, MP calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8.25</font>, SB calls $3.90 (All-In), Hero calls $7.25, MP folds.

Turn: ($28.65) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $24.75 (All-In)</font>


fold pre, fold flop, fold turn?
edit: shove turn?

[Milky]

Fold pf. As played I'd push the turn, thinking that you'll have a bit of FE as well as all of your outs.

[BrunoThePug]

I don't like calling preflop as you'll be playing the hand OOP from the PFR and you're in the middle of loose passive SB and aggro button. Puts you in a weird "Well I'd call if I knew what button was going to do" type spot. Which kinda happened on the flop when you called the SB's donk bet.

As played I would shove turn. As mily suggested you might have some FE against button and you certainly picked up some outs with the Q.

[gedanken]

yeah, I sometimes wish pokerstars presented the games in FTR format, because the right move often looks so much more obvious when I post it!

Any qualms about shoving the queen? Button seems unlikely to fold, as the queen isn't very threatening.

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, I sometimes wish pokerstars presented the games in FTR format, because the right move often looks so much more obvious when I post it!

Any qualms about shoving the queen? Button seems unlikely to fold, as the queen isn't very threatening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I thought the same but you can't really fold so if you're going to put your money in you might as well do it first and put him to the test, as you might have a tiny big of FE. Maybe he has something like TT and will lay down?

[Peter Harris]

I'd rather shove turn.

As played i think you're best folding now.

[ev_slave]

I think you have to fold the turn as played. If you have all 15 outs then you're priced in pretty good, but I think a lot of the time the BB will have called w/ a FD, so you could be down to 6 outs.

I think that open-shoving the Q works because the button's flop raise could be something like K9 raising because he's best at that point but unlikely to improve. Shoving the turn succeeds in making some better hands fold out.

[ILikeTrees]

you have 4 outs to a k, 4 to an 8, and eight to a flush. thats 16 outs, his hand looks like a set or a high overpair.
you have $15ish dollars left behind on the turn, and so you would be calling 15 into 45ish dollars. you're getting three to one, you have to call. you're probably much better just betting all in on the turn as played, becuase you're getting a little bit of fold equity, and you can be pretty sure he's going to bet all in anyway.

[jtr]

He's got 4 outs to an eight, and 4 outs to a king, sure. But the flush outs after that are only 7 cards (can't count 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] twice).

Also I think you need to discount the flush outs somewhat, as somebody else may be drawing to a better flush, or at least drawing to a worse flush which would reduce the number of hearts in the deck. I'd guess it at 5 outs for the flush, making 13 total, making his effective odds to hit about 2.5 to 1.

[Edit] But as you rightly point out the pot is offering close to 3:1, so I think that makes it a call.

[Khumalo]

Um, pf and especially flop look pretty bad to me. You seem to have a thing (see cbet defense thread) for cold-calling strong-seeming raises from the blinds. This will continue to put you in awkward places. Basic (micro-NL) blind theory: re-raise in the right spots against the right opponents, else fold most of the time, unless set-mining / up against a super ATM.

Your flop play is perplexing. The button nearly pots it into 4 people, investing 1/3 of his stack, and you decide to call with a naked (non-nut) flush draw? I really don't think you have anywhere near the implied odds to see a turn in this situation, let alone direct odds. I doubt you'll often convince the button to stack off when the turn brings a heart, and he's very likely to make another large bet when it doesn't, which leaves you nowhere.

As played, the turn is too good for you to fold (having invested so much) and pushing is better than calling his push (bit of FE, blah blah.) But how you ended up there is a losing proposition.