Stud - style of play - discussion

[Praxising]

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Doc

Maybe show Praxising what the exact cards were making up your 35/45/20 EV calculation. Its a perfect example of "percentages" vs "probabilities" thought process. Or, if you like, "COULD BE" vs "might be".

When players freeze in the "maze", they check.

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NONONO! For the luvva mike, don't show Prax anything in Stud. I get it, about the percentages changing with every street, same as Razz - worse with multiple players - --ah ---"maze" --got it.

And while I don't know any math, I do know this: mathematicians argue about how to calculate this or that and whether something is significant or not and what you can or not assume like chimps fighting over the last banana. I'm not sure the math is always such a black and white deal anyway.

But I wouldn't know.

[docholiday420]

CPA I aplogize if you happen to not mean what u said as an insult. I'm horrible at detecting internet tone. The hand I described though has nothing to do with a drawing hand, it was a hand in a tourney I went out with and I also had the draw. Percentages work with telling you what a possible future it. So percentage players like this hand because 50% you'll get something else to win. Instintice don't because their decision are based off reading hands, and they know they are behind and have to improve.

Maybe this is the difference between instinct and percentage play. Instinctive players like hands they are in the lead. They will push with sixes when they know they are against fours, and fold aces against two pair. They are only really beaten when they suck out, while percentage players play the hands, because calculated 50% of the time or whatever they win.

Again I'm not saying which is right but just trying to define these two terms clearer to get sklansky's point. It appears his whole foundation is on math and percentages, and yet he's saying that philosophy just gets bye, and instinctive are far better.

I don't know which one is better or more profitable, but i do know times I have needed to improve to win i have failed more times than not. If it's 50/50 it'll happen 10% of the time.

[Poker CPA]

No insult intended.

Stud is a game of mistakes. When the action is to you, you have choices, check, bet, raise or fold. When there different plays to be made, you have to decide how bad it will be if you make a mistake.

In your example, which mistake has the worst consequences;

Betting into two potential drawing hands on 5th, with Aces, with the EV slightly against you but having the "best of it";

OR

Checking into two potential lower pairs, thus giving free cards, in a situation where you have a big EV advantage plus having the "best of it".

"Electical was correct in stating the default play was to bet. The good news is at least your default play, a check, has turn into a "sometimes".

[docholiday420]

My default isn't to check and in that situation i bet because I also had the flush draw. I just think you're better off betting top pair into two lower pairs then two or three draws because if you imrpove unless they make a 1/10 of making a full house you will win the hand, where as opposed to a flush draws you can improve you still lose. Again definitely against 1 draw bet, and two draws your still going to get 2/1 money on 2/1 odds of neither improving but when you get to three or more draws or basically up against three hands 2 draws and a low 2 pair you are getting the worst of it, and should not invest more money into the pot. Even though you have aces you only probably put one BB in so far adding what you did on 3rd and 4th, now if yo continue to bet out that is 2BB and maybe a third or even fourth. IDk I play 5/10 10/20 where the ante is 1/20 of the BB so playing tighter is more profitable, I can't say I would but maybe at a 75/150 level with 15 ante I the play would be different.

For prax if you want advice what is the ante structure this a major difference in play that a lot of people overlook, you overall approach to the game.

BTW does MAZE stand for something?

[Poker CPA]

From always checking, to sometimes, to always betting. NICE

[docholiday420]

I've never said always betting or always checking, your position was an absolute, always bet. CPA ou said something along the lines of "they don't hit you get paid, they do it you lose." This is the difference between instinctive and percentages, percentages play is usually in absolutes. You have three to a flush no dead cards you call that is a percentage decision--a very correct one--but still a percentage. You are still behind a pair, and odds against you. Sometimes folding or checking AA is instinctive you can't say yes, you can't say no, which is what I've always said. Even my last post says bet with one draws, maybe two, never three or more, and you summed that up as ALWAYS BETTING, are you just skimming my posts.

Are there any observers that can clean this up.

I hate beating this dead horse, but only because every time I say the same opinion on this issue--sometimes you bet sometimes you check--you always misinterpret it.

[Praxising]

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For prax if you want advice what is the ante structure this a major difference in play that a lot of people overlook, you overall approach to the game.

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I wasn't looking for specific advice, I just wanted to "hear" people talk about the issues. You are right, of course, and I did play for weeks before I realized that the ante structure was so different between the two sites I was playing that parts of my game were almost diametrically opposed.

But if you have thoughts about that or general advice, I am all ears.

[docholiday420]

Well the lower the ante in relation to the BB the tighter you have to play because there is less starting money in the pot and calling on 3rd with less premium hands is more antes you are giving, higher ante you kind of have to play more hands and overall it will be more of a rollercoaster.

For general advice pay a lot of attention to cards that are out. If you have three to a flush also check how many other cards of the suit are in other hands, if on a straight see how many of the cards you need are out. In pairs try to always start out with the higher pair, for instance if you have q against K early on you might want to get out early, but again if it is a higher ante you may have to make these calls. But with lower pairs you that pair live, and either concealed so if you trip up no one will see it, or a higher kicker then the other pair like AQQ vs KK4, you hit another Ace of Q you're in the lead as opposed to KKQ vs AA4.

[2461Badugi]

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I think Sklansky was talking about draw /and low ball and not stud when he made these comments.

His point is perfect play before the draw is nowhere near as important as after the draw, and alot of instinctual players don't so well before the draw but play much better than percentage after the draw.

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I'm not a Sklansky-infallibility guy, but there is no way that quote could be about draw, it's so wrong. It's less wrong for lowball, but it makes a lot of sense for stud or holdem.

Handreading is huge in all forms of poker, just some more than others. High stud is near the top of the scale. But even in a game like Razz which seems really simple and mechanical when you're learning it, handreading can be a huge advantage.