Pushing the Marginal? ($10NL)

Zeldark · #1 02-21-2007, 07:22 AM

This is my first time playing Ring NL for money outside of a tournament in essentially 2 years, and that was when I was first getting into poker and blew my first $25 deposit and basically haven't done Ring NL since. I'm comfortable with NL tournies, but since this hand is not from a tourney, this forum is where this hand belongs. I'm a regular over in the limit forum, but I felt like a change of pace and playing some NL tonight, and this hand was a result. So this post also serves as an introduction, because I had fun with the NL and I'll do it again.

I have PT, but under the assumption that even if any of these players were in my (limit) database, the data would be next to useless, so I didn't bother bringing it up (though I suppose the HUD could've helped). So, there are no stats, but that doesn't mean there are no reads.
CO is unknown, but the button is different. When the button joined my table, I was up to about $8. With some bad bluffs and overestimating his willingness to fold, I had whittled myself down to about $2. This hand takes place after I exploited my image as a bluffer to make some good double ups, most of the chips which have come from his stack. Now that our stack sizes are reversed, I think he might be tilting, and it's not certain. He was a sort of loose to begin with anyways.

Essentially when the ace falls I was worried about him improving with ace rags to aces up or maybe even a slowplayed set.

On the river though, he's become severely shortstacked. He's betting at most about 1/2 the pot, so I figured he might bet out of tilt and then I'd decide if I wanted to call that amount, but I wasn't about to give it to him.

Looking back as I post this, I should've pushed him all in on the river, no?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($3.35)
SB ($10)
BB ($6)
UTG ($6.85)
UTG+1 ($10.60)
MP1 ($12.20)
MP2 ($13.40)
Hero ($9.70)
CO ($4.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.45) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.4, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40, BB folds.

Turn: ($1.65) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $1, CO folds, Button calls $1.

River: ($3.65) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $3.65

ama0330 · #2 02-21-2007, 07:36 AM

Definitely dont push the river because you just get called by better and fold out worse. Having said that you are ahead of his range by a fair margin so I like a valuebet of say $2. With your read which says he has an inability to fold you should be betting this hand as strong as you could, but pushing the river is excessive because he wont call his marginal one pair hands which he thinks are still good versus you. $2 on the river is best here methinks.

When you say you "whittled yourself down to $2" this is really bad, you should always play with a full $10 stack, and reload as often as you can to keep yourself topped up.

Also, I am not great on Full Ring play, so I cant comment on open limping with a poor hand like this out of position, but it seems wrong. I prefer to raise or fold here, but remember that I play 6-max so this might not be the best advice. Any FR players want to jump in here?

VPIP100 · #3 02-21-2007, 07:40 AM

FR forum is just around the corner.

Reef · #4 02-21-2007, 07:40 AM

don't like the open limp
--
flop fine
--
bet turn bigger
--
bet/fold river

Zeldark · #5 02-21-2007, 07:55 AM

In order:
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely dont push the river because you just get called by better and fold out worse. Having said that you are ahead of his range by a fair margin so I like a valuebet of say $2.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't push him all in, but value bet $2? There is no difference, he doesn't have $2 left on the river.

This is the MicroNL forum, there is no specification that it's shorthanded. What's the deal with that? This is a microNL hand anyways.

You're raising PF with 45s?

And again, he has $1.95 left on the river with a $3.65 pot. What amount am I bet/folding? Doesn't a check/call or a shove make more sense?

I hate to be the guy that asks for advice and shoots it down, but I'm a bit confused.

BobboFitos · #6 02-21-2007, 08:17 AM

you probably should bet more on the turn, and pf is somewhat debateable, but this is pretty well played.

Zeldark · #7 02-21-2007, 08:32 AM

It's not so much that I limped in the pot as it is that I'm the first one in the pot, and limping? Is that the idea? You're suggesting raising because since we're first in we have the best chance of stealing and it throws off some reads? If there were other limpers already you wouldn't mind following with a limp would you?

VPIP100 · #8 02-21-2007, 08:46 AM

If there are more limpers, you can go along with the ride. Open limp this is not that good, because you can't call if someone raises behind you. (OOP etc)

LearningCurve · #9 02-21-2007, 08:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not so much that I limped in the pot as it is that I'm the first one in the pot, and limping? Is that the idea? You're suggesting raising because since we're first in we have the best chance of stealing and it throws off some reads? If there were other limpers already you wouldn't mind following with a limp would you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally hang out in the fr forum. In early position the fr forum would almost assuredly tell you to generally throw this hand away pf. Since you are the hj here though, I like entering with a standard 4xbb raise. In a pot with 2-3 limpers already, agree that overlimping would be fine.

Smilin' · #10 02-21-2007, 10:38 AM

Preflop I'm also inclined to raise or fold.

I'd bet more on the turn to protect against draws. As played, I don't think I could ever fold on the river. I mean, you might be beat, but I'm never folding for less than 1/2 pot with 2 pair vs. a guy who's tilting. The only question is whether he's more likely to make a frustration call or a frustration bluff. Likely hands you beat are missed draws, 6x, maybe some middle PP's (though I think usually those would raise you at some point), totally whiffed draws, and A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] without 2 pair. If you bet, he probably calls with the 6x, middle PP's, A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If you check, he probably bets A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], maybe middle PP's, and sometimes pushes with air. Given how the hand has gone, a whiffed draw is not unlikely. If you think he'll push those a lot, then I like check/call. Otherwise I'd push river.

My 2 cents.