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  #11  
Old 08-16-2007, 06:28 AM
crunny crunny is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

Problem is some villains wont fold KK to just a turn bet. You will need to follow up with a river bet and i'm not really sure that would be wise.
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  #12  
Old 08-16-2007, 06:36 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

[ QUOTE ]
Problem is some villains wont fold KK to just a turn bet. You will need to follow up with a river bet and i'm not really sure that would be wise.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I think this is correct- in fact, I'm almost certain that checking behind on the turn and calling a small river bet is probably the best line.

I, OTOH, decided to get all fancy with the hand and bet the turn. I play poker bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2007, 07:05 AM
crunny crunny is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is some villains wont fold KK to just a turn bet. You will need to follow up with a river bet and i'm not really sure that would be wise.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I think this is correct- in fact, I'm almost certain that checking behind on the turn and calling a small river bet is probably the best line.

I, OTOH, decided to get all fancy with the hand and bet the turn. I play poker bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Also your logic throughout this hand doesnt seem to make much sense to me.

You call PF because you think a large part of his range isn't AA, KK. BUT then, on the turn, you want to bluff him off KK, one of the two hands you didnt give him much credit for in the first place!
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  #14  
Old 08-16-2007, 07:07 AM
BT2 BT2 is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

grunch
\fold
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  #15  
Old 08-16-2007, 08:31 AM
threads13 threads13 is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is some villains wont fold KK to just a turn bet. You will need to follow up with a river bet and i'm not really sure that would be wise.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I think this is correct- in fact, I'm almost certain that checking behind on the turn and calling a small river bet is probably the best line.

I, OTOH, decided to get all fancy with the hand and bet the turn. I play poker bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Also your logic throughout this hand doesnt seem to make much sense to me.

You call PF because you think a large part of his range isn't AA, KK. BUT then, on the turn, you want to bluff him off KK, one of the two hands you didnt give him much credit for in the first place!

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, he said it was a bad play! You can't chastise him now!

If we think most of his range his PP, SC's, and some random junk then I like checking the turn as well. He isn't as likely to call a turn bet as he is to bet or maybe call a river bet. A free card isn't a big deal when he has at most 5 outs and most of the time he has 2 or less.


Edit: It is also worth noting that we are at the commitment threshold and not committed so we should exercise pot control.
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  #16  
Old 08-16-2007, 08:47 AM
Javanewt Javanewt is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

Unless you are willing to call a check-raise, I'd check behind and be happy about it. If he'll let you see it for cheap, fine with me.

(I just realized you bet, sorry. What did villain do?)
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  #17  
Old 08-16-2007, 08:57 AM
threads13 threads13 is offline
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Default 3:

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you are willing to call a check-raise, I'd check behind and be happy about it. If he'll let you see it for cheap, fine with me.

(I just realized you bet, sorry. What did villain do?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I would bet that he got c/r'd since playalongs are way better when the hero makes a mistake! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would guess the our Hero bet 30(60) behind and he was c/r'd AI. So, now he is getting almost 3:1 on a call but it is hard to imagine that he is ahead as much as 10% of the time.

How close am I? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #18  
Old 08-16-2007, 09:49 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: 3:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you are willing to call a check-raise, I'd check behind and be happy about it. If he'll let you see it for cheap, fine with me.

I just realized you bet, sorry. What did villain do?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I would bet that he got c/r'd since playalongs are way better when the hero makes a mistake! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would guess the our Hero bet 30(60) behind and he was c/r'd AI. So, now he is getting almost 3:1 on a call but it is hard to imagine that he is ahead as much as 10% of the time.

How close am I? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]I did even worse than that. i bet 20 and he minraised to 40. Then I thought "ZOMG- OESD!" and called, even though I wasn't getting odds. Then I was getting something like 7:1 on the river so I just called off the rest in frustration.

Villain had KT and MHIG. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Final analysis- I played the hand like a monkey. I was completely lost the whole way, put money in when I was confused, called without odds, and generally screwed this up every way I could.

Threads, your plan for the hand was perfect, and if I'd gone in with that thought in mind I would have played this much better. Even though the ace came on the flop, after he checked it twice I know I could have called a small river bet from him profitably against his range.

Anyway, lessons learned

1) l/r from bad LAGs does not necessarily mean AA/KK
2) have a plan for your hand than includes exploiting lesson #1.
3) when you are confused about where you are in the hand, don't voluntarily put more money in the pot
4) some people play so bad that you can play like a monkey and still profit
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2007, 09:56 AM
Jeff76 Jeff76 is offline
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Default Re: 100NL- QQ vs L/R

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is some villains wont fold KK to just a turn bet. You will need to follow up with a river bet and i'm not really sure that would be wise.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I think this is correct- in fact, I'm almost certain that checking behind on the turn and calling a small river bet is probably the best line.

I, OTOH, decided to get all fancy with the hand and bet the turn. I play poker bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Also your logic throughout this hand doesnt seem to make much sense to me.

You call PF because you think a large part of his range isn't AA, KK. BUT then, on the turn, you want to bluff him off KK, one of the two hands you didnt give him much credit for in the first place!

[/ QUOTE ]Yup- like I said. I played it bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

The reason for the twisted logic was I really didn't have any kind of range for villain I got so confused by the l/r. So I kept putting him on hands and then trying to play against that hand. This is dumb, but an easy trap to fall into. This just underscores how important it is to be able to assess villain's range and have a plan for your hand that exploits that range.

Since I really had no idea about villain's range and couldn't formulate a plan, I probably should have folded PF. I am glad I played the hand, though, because I think I'll have a better idea of how to proceed with similar hands in the future.

This post was an example of how NOT to play. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #20  
Old 08-16-2007, 10:01 AM
threads13 threads13 is offline
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Default Re: 3:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you are willing to call a check-raise, I'd check behind and be happy about it. If he'll let you see it for cheap, fine with me.

I just realized you bet, sorry. What did villain do?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I would bet that he got c/r'd since playalongs are way better when the hero makes a mistake! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would guess the our Hero bet 30(60) behind and he was c/r'd AI. So, now he is getting almost 3:1 on a call but it is hard to imagine that he is ahead as much as 10% of the time.

How close am I? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]I did even worse than that. i bet 20 and he minraised to 40. Then I thought "ZOMG- OESD!" and called, even though I wasn't getting odds. Then I was getting something like 7:1 on the river so I just called off the rest in frustration.

Villain had KT and MHIG. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Final analysis- I played the hand like a monkey. I was completely lost the whole way, put money in when I was confused, called without odds, and generally screwed this up every way I could.

Threads, your plan for the hand was perfect, and if I'd gone in with that thought in mind I would have played this much better. Even though the ace came on the flop, after he checked it twice I know I could have called a small river bet from him profitably against his range.

Anyway, lessons learned

1) l/r from bad LAGs does not necessarily mean AA/KK
2) have a plan for your hand than includes exploiting lesson #1.
3) when you are confused about where you are in the hand, don't voluntarily put more money in the pot
4) some people play so bad that you can play like a monkey and still profit

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, close! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

However you were getting 5:1 odds, so I don't think your turn call was bad. You have about 8 outs on a good day. Give him a FD part of the time and a split pot part of the time and I would give your hands about 5-6 outs IF you are behind. If you have 5 out need to make up 60 bucks on the river when you are behind. That is about all you have left but I still think you are ahead here. So, I think the turn is a call and then the river is a call as well.

I think you played it fine after you bet the turn and I think betting the turn is even +EV(if only slightly).

Sometimes I lose my focus and bet that turn too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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