Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Tournament Poker > MTT Community

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:15 PM
Double Ice Double Ice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 433
Default Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

Just wanted to know about this, I couldn't find it anywhere.

Say I have K high and my opponent has A high on the river. I bet and he calls. I table my hand. A high mucks facedown but the cards are identifiable. A couple seconds later as the pot is moving in my direction, he says "Oh, I have A high, turn up the cards." The floor is called.

What is the ruling?

Does the ruling change if
[*](a)my bet on the river was all-in[*](b)I miscalled my hand? (say I said "two pair" while tabling.)[*](a) and (b)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:34 PM
rminusq rminusq is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 202
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

(A) On an all-in, the dealer should not accept the muck, but should flip the hand up and already be awarding the pot to your opponent.
(B) When you angle-shoot like this, you deserve a KITN, but the ruling depends on the casino. In some cases, just the fact that you lied while showing your hand kills it (maybe just cash games, though). In any event, the dealer shouldn't be pushing the pot until he has mucked all hands. If the dealer has killed your opponent's hand, he gets a lesson in reading hands. If not, then the ruling probably varies by casino.
(A)+(B) See (A).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:50 PM
BadgerPro BadgerPro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: There\'s only one... BadgerPro!
Posts: 5,679
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

I'm pretty sure you can muck your cards if the all-in is on the river.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-29-2007, 04:51 PM
Rupert Rupert is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Posts: 659
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

my understanding:
if his hand hit the muck, his hand is dead and you should be awarded the pot

a) nothing changes
b) nothing changes as long as your hand is showndown and his hit the muck
a+b) nothing changes
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:20 PM
Double Ice Double Ice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 433
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

In another ruling, I think with Kenny Tran, someone moved all in on the flop and Kenny called. The other guy mucked his cards but the dealer identified them, turned them face up and ran the board. The other person caught runner runner and won. This doesn't agree with the "nothing happens, he mucked so its dead" so I wanted clarification as to how it works on the river.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:35 PM
Double Ice Double Ice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 433
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

What happens if I don't table my hand and he mucks? Does that change anything? What if I don't miscall my hand?

What I am looking for is the definitive rule on when it is okay to retrieve hands from the muck. IMO it should be 100% never but it seems to be okay in some circumstances so I want that clear.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-29-2007, 07:12 PM
Rupert Rupert is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Posts: 659
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

That particular hand with Kenny I think was contraversial and the floor made the wrong ruling (not sure about this though). The guy claimed that he flipped over his cards.

If he mucks the pot should be awarded to you as you are the only person left in the pot. I don't think you are under any obligation to show your cards.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:25 PM
kerze kerze is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 343
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

[ QUOTE ]
That particular hand with Kenny I think was contraversial and the floor made the wrong ruling (not sure about this though). The guy claimed that he flipped over his cards.

If he mucks the pot should be awarded to you as you are the only person left in the pot. I don't think you are under any obligation to show your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand was with JC Tran not Kenny. Both Johnny Grooms and Matt Savage posted in Tournament Circuit forum that the decision was correct according to TDA rules which are there to prevent collusion and/or chip dumping. The fact the guy claimed that he meant to turn them face up had nothing to do with the decision. He never said anything about that until after he won the hand. It was obvious from the video that he was mucking them.

I was watching the Mouthpiece and Matusow's opinion was that the hand should have been turned up but declared dead. This could expose collusion but would not prevent chip dumping.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:36 PM
jcg2005 jcg2005 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: \"well btch im cuter\"
Posts: 636
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

[ QUOTE ]
What happens if I don't table my hand and he mucks? Does that change anything? What if I don't miscall my hand?

What I am looking for is the definitive rule on when it is okay to retrieve hands from the muck. IMO it should be 100% never but it seems to be okay in some circumstances so I want that clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont have the definitive rule, but i have a feeling this would get better replies in B&M since alot of dealers and floormen post there.... you may have already tried this but here goes
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:55 PM
Double Ice Double Ice is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 433
Default Re: Hypothetical Tournament Ruling Question

I thought some popular TD's frequented this forum, which is why I posted here.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.