is FPS becoming a new trend for SMTT 2+2ers?

[ssnyc]

cheb...we shouldnt necessarily be limping small pairs or SCs from EP unless very deep or tight table...if we enter a pot with a small pair from EP based on table dynamic we should 2.5-3 BB raise same as our monsters...yes you should mix it up but be very prepared to get stacked a decent amount of time...remember that players will call EP raises wide and you are better off buidling a pot when you have the best of it...

[ZenMusician]

At a passive table, I often limp 22-66, SC, with the read that
the whole table will follow limping in; the problem becomes
"that guy" who will move in or raise huge in one of the
blinds (which happens after a couple rounds of the pf
limping until a sheriff emerges).

There must be some website advocating CRAI with just a
non-nut flush draw, etc. against TAGs/2p2...because they
"know" we won't stack off with TPTK.

When did I become that donkey who stacks off with 1 pair?

If my opponent causes me to play that badly, wasn't his
play (even if accidentally) correct?

-ZEN

[Sherman]

For every villain that is "tricky" and limps a big pair from EP, there is 1/2 a villain that gets knocked out by limping his big pair from EP.

Combine that with the fact that attacking limpers is so profitable, and we learn that we should still attack limpers like crazy and stop fearing monsters under the bed all the time. So what, occasionally we will get trapped and knocked out of a tournament. More often we profit from those who limp too much.

Sherman

[ssnyc]

[ QUOTE ]
At a passive table, I often limp 22-66, SC, with the read that
the whole table will follow limping in; the problem becomes
"that guy" who will move in or raise huge in one of the
blinds (which happens after a couple rounds of the pf
limping until a sheriff emerges).

There must be some website advocating CRAI with just a
non-nut flush, etc. against TAGs/2p2...because they
"know" we won't stack off with TPTK.

When did I become that donkey who stacks off with 1 pair?

If my opponent causes me to play that badly, wasn't his
play (even if accidentally) correct?

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Zen...poker is funny...biggest suggestion is play based on your stack size and live with result...If i have 20 BB and get AA UTG i may limp it intnding to go to the mat no matter what and trying to get value...if shorter 7-12 BB i push AA along with 88 and AK...if deeper standard raise ad play cards

[ZenMusician]

I hear you!

I appreciate this discussion; this forum helped me win
my first 4/180 (waaay too many 3rds+2nds).

After the blinds reach ~200, it's a struggle between
protecting and building your stack, and attacking limpers
seems like a great idea.

The check-minraise is another one...it's either air or
you're drawing dead, at least on Stars, whereas on FT
you're usually dead!

Thanks to everyone participating.

-ZEN

[Dunkman]

As far as the limping thing goes just pay some attention. I mean if a guy running 12/8 that you haven't seen open limp in an hour all of the sudden open limps then you should obviously be cautious. If there's some guy limping 2-3 times an orbit then just abuse him. I know we get moved tables a lot, and I don't wait 4 orbits to get reads, but usually I'll want to see 10 hands or so before I make a big move with nothing, just to get some idea of what's going on.

I have seen some odd stuff lately, last night in the 55k I saw 2 people in the last level of hour 2, one with an 80BB stack the other with about 100, get AIPF with KJo v. 55 with the guy with 55 being in EP and the guy with KJo being in MP. They were both pretty agro, something like 25/17 I think, but nothing really crazy. I honestly couldn't believe it. It was obviously a case where they both out thought themselves.

Finally, I agree with Barry that, especially when we're pretty deep, I've cut down my cbet frequency quite a bit. However, I've found the delayed cbet to be absolutely golden at some tables, especially in the rebuys where people have more chips than they know what to do with and seem to like never fold anything to a cbet.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
For every villain that is "tricky" and limps a big pair from EP, there is 1/2 a villain that gets knocked out by limping his big pair from EP.

Combine that with the fact that attacking limpers is so profitable, and we learn that we should still attack limpers like crazy and stop fearing monsters under the bed all the time. So what, occasionally we will get trapped and knocked out of a tournament. More often we profit from those who limp too much.

Sherman

[/ QUOTE ]

It'a as simple as this re: EP limpers. Look at your stack and see what you can do. IMO, if you are 30BB+ deep in CO or button, assuming stacks to my left are not too shallow, I will raise with a pretty wide range and play poker. OTOH, if villain limper is shallow but weak, I will limp/fold.

Here's a little trick. Say you know a limper is really bad and he limps MP2 or something. He has ~10BB. You look at two other stacks to your left, and they are both resteal capable, but ultimately fairly shallow (like 11 - 14 BB). Well, I like to raise a good range here too if I'm on the button - the shallow stacks are afraid of the limper and the limper is afraid you are raising against the shallow stacks. He's going to put you on a monster and you get easy chips. I think you can do this with a very wide BB range.

The really hard part, IMO, is when you are in that 19BB and a player with 9-15 BB UTG limps. Last night, this hand killed me, I may post it later, but I'm too embarassed by my play:

Blinds 6000/12000/600 (8 players, starting pot = 22500)

UTG (190,000) limps, MP2 (240,000) (a strong player) calls, Hero in CO (190,000) with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ???

I think an argument for limping in should be made here. The steadfast rule is that with these BB, you should look to resteal, open raise, or fold. Well, you really can't do any of that, because if UTG has a monster, you are trapped, you still have players to act (say they are all about 13BB deep), blah blah. But the pot is quite large now and it would be a sing not to see this flop without suited connectors. If you get trapped if a J or 10 comes on the board, then that's going to suck big time, but implied odds are > reverse implied odds here, I think you need to limp.

against an EP limper, you just have to keep an open mind. If he's trappy, so be it, but you can gauge trappiness from his stack size a bunch; and if you have a really strong hand and the pot is big enough, take advantage right back by limping, even if you are a little shallow.

[Sherman]

Barry,

I agree. I'll often fold or limp behind regarding your last example.

Sherman

[ssnyc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For every villain that is "tricky" and limps a big pair from EP, there is 1/2 a villain that gets knocked out by limping his big pair from EP.

Combine that with the fact that attacking limpers is so profitable, and we learn that we should still attack limpers like crazy and stop fearing monsters under the bed all the time. So what, occasionally we will get trapped and knocked out of a tournament. More often we profit from those who limp too much.

Sherman

[/ QUOTE ]

It'a as simple as this re: EP limpers. Look at your stack and see what you can do. IMO, if you are 30BB+ deep in CO or button, assuming stacks to my left are not too shallow, I will raise with a pretty wide range and play poker. OTOH, if villain limper is shallow but weak, I will limp/fold.

Here's a little trick. Say you know a limper is really bad and he limps MP2 or something. He has ~10BB. You look at two other stacks to your left, and they are both resteal capable, but ultimately fairly shallow (like 11 - 14 BB). Well, I like to raise a good range here too if I'm on the button - the shallow stacks are afraid of the limper and the limper is afraid you are raising against the shallow stacks. He's going to put you on a monster and you get easy chips. I think you can do this with a very wide BB range.

The really hard part, IMO, is when you are in that 19BB and a player with 9-15 BB UTG limps. Last night, this hand killed me, I may post it later, but I'm too embarassed by my play:

Blinds 6000/12000/600 (8 players, starting pot = 22500)

UTG (190,000) limps, MP2 (240,000) (a strong player) calls, Hero in CO (190,000) with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ???

I think an argument for limping in should be made here. The steadfast rule is that with these BB, you should look to resteal, open raise, or fold. Well, you really can't do any of that, because if UTG has a monster, you are trapped, you still have players to act (say they are all about 13BB deep), blah blah. But the pot is quite large now and it would be a sing not to see this flop without suited connectors. If you get trapped if a J or 10 comes on the board, then that's going to suck big time, but implied odds are > reverse implied odds here, I think you need to limp.

against an EP limper, you just have to keep an open mind. If he's trappy, so be it, but you can gauge trappiness from his stack size a bunch; and if you have a really strong hand and the pot is big enough, take advantage right back by limping, even if you are a little shallow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry...good example of a prime time and hand to limp with an awkward stack...biggest danger I see is that it creates a really prime squeeze spot for the remaining players...Nicest part is you will probably have position so you don't have to go broke on a J or 10 high flop though it's possible...I likkeee the call here and count on post flop skill

[erc007]

[ QUOTE ]
guys...seems like lately there have been a lot of posts where people are trying to outplay opponents with fancy moves and bluffs...It tends not to work at low blind levels and low stakes!!!!

Value is king and focus on using reads to determine the best way to extract chips when you actually have a hand rather than trying to tell a story to a donk who could care less...

Late in tournies where chips get more value and opponents are often a little better you can start putting pressure and repping hands in spots...bottom line is people will pay you when you have the best hand...don't waste chips (unless you have a specific read) on a far fetched eloborate bluff when you are better than the competition...

That is all.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this and i always look askance at posts that preface an FPS line with "my image is...i've been playing really..." In most low stakes tournaments your opponents aren't even thinking about what cards you are holding, so why would u then assume that they have been observing and are cognizant your VPIP, or betting patterns?