Most over-rated poker book of all time?

[Poker Clif]

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My vote is Supersystem by a long way. Will give reasons a bit later, just wondering whether their are any other contendors for this title.

I'm sure their are other worse poker books out their, Play Poker Like the Pro's by Hellmuth certainly wasn't good. I haven't read Macevoy's and Cloutiers efforts but they generally seem to be considered pretty bad too.

However these books aren't nick named "the bible of poker". Wonder how many people have gone broke following Doyles NL section.

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The first two poker books that I read were Hellmuth and Brunson. Boy was I confused!

Hellmut advocated only opening with top ten hands, and Bruson was going on about how you could bust someone with small suited connectors.

I'm glad I didn't read a Gus Hansen book after that, or my head probably would have exploded!

[Poker Clif]

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No single book, or any collection of books, is going to make you a winning player.

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If someone reads Bill Chen's book, and takes the time to re-read it until he understands it... then I don't understand how he could NOT be a winning player.

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Well yes, but I'm not sure it's that easy.

I'm a little rusty, but I do have five college math courses under my belt and a MENSA card. Even so, there was math in there that I have never seen before.

There are certainly intelligent people out there, even people with degrees from big-time schools, that haven't take as much math as I. And honestly, I think it would take me at least 100 hours of work to really understand the math in that book that I have never encountered before.

Further, from their own words about their math inclinations and abilities, I can name two pros, Mike Matusow and Jennifer Harmon, who aren't going to tackle that book.

If you understand Chen's book and can apply it, will you be a good player. Absolutely! Can most serious amateur players do that? No.

[Poker Clif]

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Perhaps if poker was a religion then Supersystem would be its "bible" - A book of "fiction", followed by many, in which the content is rarely ever questioned.

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If I had used this thread, which has absolutely nothing to do with religion, to tell you that you must be born again, or that the world must become as one under a Muslim caliphate, it would be equally as inappropriate as your comment.

Non sequitur, wrong thread, definitely unnecessary.

(Edited for spelling)

[kudzudemon]

If I may, with standard rock crit/music snob conceit, follow your stream of thought on the poker/music comparison…

When I was actively writing about music, I was asked several times to participate in one of those “Best Rock Albums of All Time” polls. In virtually every one, at least for the first few years, the winner was Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, by the Beatles. Almost every critic who remembered it’s release voted for it, and mentioned it’s influence, it’s impact, and it’s historical perspective. Almost every essay written in it’s support was washed in nostalgic musing and generational tyranny. I became embroiled in more than a few debates when I questioned it’s brilliance, and mentioned that everything about it was hideously dated. Whatever it’s merits, it was a chore to listen to. It wasn’t, to my thinking, even the best work of the Beatles, let alone all time. I argued that other albums, while a bit less “influential”, maintained a vibrancy that transcended their era as Sgt. Pepper failed to do. As years passed, and others began to chime in, the domination of Sgt. Pepper in these polls began to diminish, and, while it deservedly retained it’s rep as a landmark album, it was being seen more and more as “overrated”.

Hold ‘em Poker for Advanced Players is the “Sgt. Pepper” of poker books. It was, at one time, the industry standard, and it still contains immutable concepts that remain mathematically and technically correct. But the game has evolved so much that deeper study of it’s ideas and concepts has become a necessity. It’s ideas have been expanded upon so well, in later books, some by the same writers, that it seems a bit superfluous now. I wouldn’t say, as you did, that it “isn’t a very good book”…a bit clumsy and dated, perhaps, but not BAD.

Mason, your claim to HPFAP’s historical significance is irrelevant to it’s overrated/underrated status. And, frankly, the declaration that HPFAP is underrated seems a bit over-compensatory and downright silly.

SUPER/SYSTEM, because of it’s influence and it’s popular perception, is probably the most overrated, even though most serious players see through it pretty easily and don‘t rate it highly to begin with; it‘s overrated status comes from it‘s undeserved rep and technical holes, not simply from it‘s obsolescence.

So…let’s review:

Hold ‘em for Advanced Players=Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band by the Beatles

Super/System=Eagles Greatest Hits

A few good songs, but mostly mediocre radio pap; the sizzle don’t make the steak

Ace on the River=Sail Away, by Randy Newman

Maybe too subtle, and not your standard rock album; rewards the serious listener and open mind

Theory of Poker=Robert Johnson-The Complete Recordings

The blueprint from whence it all springs

Tournament Poker for Advanced Poker=Frampton Comes Alive

May have served a purpose once, but now you’re just kind of embarrassed that you haven’t sold it on Ebay already

Small Stakes Hold ‘em=The Sun Sessions by Elvis Presley

Still valid after all these years

Inside the Poker Mind=Highway 61 Revisited by Bob Dylan

Will redefine what you thought you knew

Poker Essays 1-3=The Jimi Hendrix Experience, Axis-Bold as Love, and Electric Ladyland

Despite their inherent representation of their era, they still resonate with power and depth

Harrington on Hold ‘em 1and 2=In Utero by Nirvana and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot by Wilco

Modern classics…well, In Utero is over fifteen years old, but they’re a damn sight more modern than the rest of the hippy-dippy cosmic moo-juice crap I still listen to

Caro’s Book of Poker Tells=Never Mind the Bollocks by the Sex Pistols

A lot of noise, and stylistically antiquated…but still valid


No Limit Hold ‘em; Theory and Practice=All That You Can’t Leave Behind by U2

The jury is still out, but it sure feels like a classic

Play Poker Like the Pros=Destroyer by Kiss

Admit it…you still have your copy; can’t throw it away, can ya? That’s okay…it’s better than you think…I mean, it has it’s place, right?

Okay, it sucks…eff you, I still like it...

[Diana Ross Fan]

Mike Sexton's Shuffle Up and Deal Alanis Morissette Jagged Little Pill.

Something you hide at the bottom of the case so no one will know you own it yet can't resist taking it out on dark lonely nights.

[skillzilla]

HOH series is the most overrated

[Uncle Wimp]

[/ QUOTE ]MM should have given you an example of a great poker book before Supersystem. I think the book, Winning Poker Systems, 1974, by Norman Zadeh qualifies.

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Winning Poker Systems is my vote for most under-rated poker book of all time.

[Mason Malmuth]

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MM should have given you an example of a great poker book before Supersystem. I think the book, Winning Poker Systems, 1974, by Norman Zadeh qualifies.


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Winning Poker Systems is my vote for most under-rated poker book of all time.

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I have given an example of a great poker book before Super/System many times. That book is Hold 'em Poker by David Sklansky. Zadeh's book is also a good one.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Gonso]

SS1 isn't overrated at all, in fact besides Doyle's NL, Chip Reese's 7Stud is very good.

HoH isn't overrated because it's just that good. So is Theory of Poker, SSHE, Zee's hi/lo book, and 7CSFAP.

Then there are other books we all know suck, like Hellmuth's or Cloutiers, so they're not really overrated.

Then there's the love/hate category: NLHETAP, Ace on the River, and Mathematics of Poker are either awful or great depending on who you ask.

I'm going to go with Roy West's 7 Card Stud book. It's not bad, but pretty irrelevant compared to 7CSFAP. Another contender is Kill Phil, and maybe even Caro's Book of Tells (a decent and helpful book, sure, but very flawed and definitely put on a pedestal by many players).

[SuperUberBob]

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Ace on the River is one of the best books on poker I've ever read.

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ur just a barry g suck up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

All joking aside, many may think it sucks because it doesn't present any decent strategic material. The thing is that it isn't supposed to be a strategy book. As a matter of fact, the strategic information in the book feels very out of the place relative to the rest of the book's theme and actually even detracted from it.

AotR is a poker book similar to the way Positively Fifth Street is a poker book.