Pregnant GF

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

How far do we take this? I've had conversations with friends about what we'd do if we won the lottery. One of my friends has said he'd buy me a sweet car. Has he wronged me somehow if after winning the lottery he doesn't buy me a car? I think I'd be a fool to assume that what we talked about constituted some sort of binding agreement, because there was little at stake during those conversations.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty lame comparison, obviously, because there is a ton at stake in conversations like "What do we do if you get pregnant?" How seriously should one take what she said? Much depends on the precise nature of what was said, which we don't know. I'll assume OP is telling the truth, for the simple reason that that's the most interesting case to consider.

[jackdaniels]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. Never mind about civil discourse.

By the way, I did adopt a 2 year old girl about 24 years ago because I wasn't lucky enough to have one of my own.

So maybe you better tone down the condemnation.

And you may want to consider counseling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You picked the wrong guy to get into it with.

It seems pretty clear that while you may SAY you don't morally object to abortion, your posts speak otherwise.

The fetus is NOT a child.

OP has no responsibility to the fetus, if the pregnancy is brought to term, he will have some fincacial obligations to the child.

The question we were debating was whether or not the females of our species have the moral right to force those who impregnate them (BY ACCIDENT, not by CHOICE) to be responsible for a child they have (usually) the ability to abort. I agree that the womans doctor is the BEST person to evaluate the dangers of abortion and also agree that if they consulted this doctor and he/she said that it would be dangerous for her to have an abortion and she THEN decided she would rather have the child than face a risky medical procedure, the OP should be responsible for this child.

If, on the other hand, she is able to have an abortion without risk to her health and still chooses to bring the fetus to term, AGAINST OP's wishes, I am of the opinion that he should not be held responsible for raising this child.

Once again, to be clear, this is my opinion and I am open to logical arguments against it, in fact, I'd happily change my position if the right arguments were rbought forth. However, so far we have heard the following arguments:

1. Women are illogical and will promise one thing but YOU SHOULD KNOW that they may choose differently when faced with being pregnant (I think this is horsesh!t).

2. "Man up" and do the "right" thing. No real argument here, this is just regurgitating the common social norm which we are here to discuss the validity of.

3. Won't anyone think of the children?!?!?! - To which I say "YES!", we should think of the children we have very carefully and decide when we are ready to have them. Getting pregnant when you can't afford to raise a child (mentally, emotionally or financially) is hard (some times, too hard) on the child and the parents who raise it.

[Jiggymike]

Can we get some cliff notes of this thread so far? OP seemed honest in his original post and his "douchiness" was mostly immaturity. Most people were urging him to "man up" and become a father but how many of you low 20 year olds would really be able to handle the financial burden and responsibility of being a child? My gf has told me repeatedly that she would not have a kid and she is WAY too immature to handle one and I would be seriously freaked if she 1) got pregnant and 2) decided to keep the kid. We take precautions but there are accidents from time to time; however, she has made the situation clear that she does not want kids for at least 6-7 years and I would not be too happy if she decided to flip flop on me. Of course, the situation is not so simple, so I was curious as to what people were saying at this point before I put more input into the conversation.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. Never mind about civil discourse.

By the way, I did adopt a 2 year old girl about 24 years ago because I wasn't lucky enough to have one of my own.

So maybe you better tone down the condemnation.

And you may want to consider counseling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You picked the wrong guy to get into it with.

It seems pretty clear that while you may SAY you don't morally object to abortion, your posts speak otherwise.

The fetus is NOT a child.

OP has no responsibility to the fetus, if the pregnancy is brought to term, he will have some fincacial obligations to the child.

The question we were debating was whether or not the females of our species have the moral right to force those who impregnate them (BY ACCIDENT, not by CHOICE) to be responsible for a child they have (usually) the ability to abort. I agree that the womans doctor is the BEST person to evaluate the dangers of abortion and also agree that if they consulted this doctor and he/she said that it would be dangerous for her to have an abortion and she THEN decided she would rather have the child than face a risky medical procedure, the OP should be responsible for this child.

If, on the other hand, she is able to have an abortion without risk to her health and still chooses to bring the fetus to term, AGAINST OP's wishes, I am of the opinion that he should not be held responsible for raising this child.

Once again, to be clear, this is my opinion and I am open to logical arguments against it, in fact, I'd happily change my position if the right arguments were rbought forth. However, so far we have heard the following arguments:

1. Women are illogical and will promise one thing but YOU SHOULD KNOW that they may choose differently when faced with being pregnant (I think this is horsesh!t).

2. "Man up" and do the "right" thing. No real argument here, this is just regurgitating the common social norm which we are here to discuss the validity of.

3. Won't anyone think of the children?!?!?! - To which I say "YES!", we should think of the children we have very carefully and decide when we are ready to have them. Getting pregnant when you can't afford to raise a child (mentally, emotionally or financially) is hard (some times, too hard) on the child and the parents who raise it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good stuff well stated, agreed on all of it.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How far do we take this? I've had conversations with friends about what we'd do if we won the lottery. One of my friends has said he'd buy me a sweet car. Has he wronged me somehow if after winning the lottery he doesn't buy me a car? I think I'd be a fool to assume that what we talked about constituted some sort of binding agreement, because there was little at stake during those conversations.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty lame comparison, obviously, because there is a ton at stake in conversations like "What do we do if you get pregnant?" How seriously should one take what she said? Much depends on the precise nature of what was said, which we don't know. I'll assume OP is telling the truth, for the simple reason that that's the most interesting case to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, bad choice of words on my part. Not sure if I can word this the way I want. I think that the level of seriousness beforehand and after the fact are not equal. You're right in that we don't know what they said or how they said it. I'm not so sure I want to accept OP's side of the story without question as many of his posts were incredibely selfish sounding, imo.

Semi-related general comment: much of this discussion has centered around the alleged "agreement" between OP and the girl. Would those one the "run" side be changing their tune if there had been no discussion of what they'd do or this was just a random hookup? Would OP then be more responsible to this child then he is now?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How far do we take this? I've had conversations with friends about what we'd do if we won the lottery. One of my friends has said he'd buy me a sweet car. Has he wronged me somehow if after winning the lottery he doesn't buy me a car? I think I'd be a fool to assume that what we talked about constituted some sort of binding agreement, because there was little at stake during those conversations.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty lame comparison, obviously, because there is a ton at stake in conversations like "What do we do if you get pregnant?" How seriously should one take what she said? Much depends on the precise nature of what was said, which we don't know. I'll assume OP is telling the truth, for the simple reason that that's the most interesting case to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, bad choice of words on my part. Not sure if I can word this the way I want. I think that the level of seriousness beforehand and after the fact are not equal. You're right in that we don't know what they said or how they said it. I'm not so sure I want to accept OP's side of the story without question as many of his posts were incredibely selfish sounding, imo.

Semi-related general comment: much of this discussion has centered around the alleged "agreement" between OP and the girl. Would those one the "run" side be changing their tune if there had been no discussion of what they'd do or this was just a random hookup? Would OP then be more responsible to this child then he is now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a note: often those on the "there are options" side seem to be lumped in with those on the "run" side. To the former, running is just one option, and of course the critical thing is that it not be swept under the rug that options actually do exist in this life. And that all options should be given serious consideration in such serious situations, rather than resorting to knee-jerk reactions that may make us feel good, but be calls to ill-considered behavior and immaturity rather than anything noble or mature.

For what it's worth, if running is done as a knee-jerk response, it doesn't strike me as much better than having a kid as a knee-jerk response. Although it's certainly better than calling or implying people are murderers or total scumbags for considering all their choices and using that sort of thing as a basis for decision-making or discussion.

[QuickLearner]

[quoteYou picked the wrong guy to get into it with.

It seems pretty clear that while you may SAY you don't morally object to abortion, your posts speak otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I picked the wrong guy? Why? Do you mean you or Blarg? Probably both, eh?

Here are my thoughts on abortion. First, I'm a male, so I'll always have a "minority interest" in that kind of a decision. I'm not pro-abortion, but I wouldn't vote for laws to prohibit it, either. It should be a decision that's 100% up to the couple. If the OP decides to coerce his girlfriend into it so he won't have to face his responsibilities, and he's willing to live with himself afterward, then that's just the way it goes. But to mark that as the best outcome is ignoring the possibility that they may turn out to be great committed parents and the child may turn out just fine. The OP doesn't seem like a complete dope, just a scared kid. It's not an automatic disaster.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Semi-related general comment: much of this discussion has centered around the alleged "agreement" between OP and the girl. Would those one the "run" side be changing their tune if there had been no discussion of what they'd do or this was just a random hookup? Would OP then be more responsible to this child then he is now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think that's fair to say.

[Inso0]

You don't have to "give up your life" to have a kid.

I'm 24.

Married, 3 children (8yo, 5yo, and 11mo), mortgage, 2 cars, etc etc.

During her second pregnancy, my wife not only was capable of taking care of the first child, but she was taking 19 college credits per semester, and had THREE part time jobs. Mind you, this was all with absolutley horrid "morning" sickness. Morning is in quotes because she was sick ALL THE TIME for 6 months of the pregnancy.

She finished her degree.

She worked DAMNED HARD to do it, but she did it.

OP, yeah you screwed up buddy. Time to accept the consequences of your actions.

Now, I lucked out. My wife is an amazing woman. She was mature enough for motherhood and refused to accept that having a kid would doom her to 60 years of greeter duty at Wal-Mart. Since my daughter was born, I've had my vasectomy and now we can focus on giving our children the best lives we can.

We own our house in a nice neighborhood. We have good jobs and our kids are being sent to a local private school. Our parents help out with babysitting every so often, but by and large, we've gotten to where we are today by sheer determination to succeed.

What you're facing is certainly scary. But it's not a death sentence. You just need to now change your priorities.

It means you have to focus on paying the rent and the bills now. No more drinking $150 at the bars on the weekend.




With that said, if you two decide that you just can't do it: Don't kill the baby. If your drinking/smoking truly screwed things up, the human body is pretty good at detecting these things and producing a miscarriage.

There are waiting lists anywhere from 12 to 36 months long for adoptions in the United States. There are plenty of people out there who will give your child the care it needs.

There were more than 1,200,000 human beings killed by abortion last year. Don't add to the death count.

You'll regret it for the rest of your life. Especially if you go on to have children in the future. Absolutely nothing in the world compares to seeing your daughter smile for the first time. Or tickling the first giggle out of her. Or when your son is old enough to actually hug you back for the first time. You'll always think about the one that you killed. My sister in law had an abortion when she was a teenager, and now has a 4 year old daughter. That baby would have been 6 years old this year. She still cries about it.

[Blarg]

Two things:

First, having a kid at 16 makes all your advice suspect. Having two more before you're 24 doesn't sound that great an idea either. At least for by far most people.

Second, bolding DON'T KILL THE BABY also kind of undermines you here as well. This would come more under the category of preaching to the converted.

[ QUOTE ]
There are waiting lists anywhere from 12 to 36 months long for adoptions in the United States. There are plenty of people out there who will give your child the care it needs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Completely untrue. You can find 4 and 5 year olds all over the place that nobody wants. The long lists are for fresh pink babies, white ones, preferably blond-haired and blue-eyed. Good luck if you're not one of those, or the result of what happens when things don't go right and you get given up for adoption after a couple of years instead of instantly.

[ QUOTE ]
You'll regret it for the rest of your life. Especially if you go on to have children in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only do you not know this, but plenty of people have done otherwise and felt fine with it. Throughout history. Abortion used to BE birth control.

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely nothing in the world compares to seeing your daughter smile for the first time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely nothing in the world makes it necessary to have this experience now, when ill-prepared. Absolutely nothing in the world makes it impossible for this to not only happen later, but happen any number of times.