Some thoughts on SS1 - Page 2

ChipsAhoya · #11 10-06-2007, 01:17 PM

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Straightforward player raises early and another straightforward player three-bets. Both AKo and JJ go straight into the muck. I've only done either a few times, but those are pretty easy lay-downs. Also, JJ > AKo.

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AK plays much easier after the flop though (in this situation).

-ChipsAhoya

RustyBrooks · #12 10-06-2007, 01:29 PM

Yeah, in the situation you describe I can often throw away JJ (although most of my holdem experience is 5-6 handed at *most* and at a 5max table I am never folding JJ preflop - in your example I'm capping) but less often AK. I'm less likely to be way ahead (although in this case you never are way ahead except against maniacs) but also less likely to be way behind.

If I am ahead with AK (dominated hands like AQ AJ KQ) then I'm in great shape.
If I'm way behind to AA or KK, well, thems the breaks, JJ is no better off
If I'm about even to QQ or lower, if I hit they will have almost no chance of catching up

With JJ I am even or a big dog.

RustyBrooks · #13 10-06-2007, 01:32 PM

I know this isn't a holdem forum, but...

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Andy B · #14 10-06-2007, 04:29 PM

I'm talking mostly about full games, although if people have full-game raising standards in a shorthanded game, then you should fold in situations like the one I described.

Not sure I agree with AK being easier to play than JJ after the flop, but I kinda suck at hold'em.

I have found that the key to playing JJ is to flop a Jack.

Since we're veering off-topic, why do they have razz and not stud or stud/8?

RustyBrooks · #15 10-06-2007, 04:43 PM

who has razz and not stud or stud/8?

Andy B · #16 10-06-2007, 07:26 PM

propokertools.com

RustyBrooks · #17 10-06-2007, 07:49 PM

Oh, I asked him about that once. It's basically because razz is easy to define hand ranges for, and stud and stud/8 are hard.

RobNottsUk · #18 10-08-2007, 08:30 AM

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I was re-reading a bit on Chip's chapter, and there is something I find puzzling.

Despite he seems to give rather tight play, he mentions if he finds a pair of tens, (what he calls a premium pair), and someone raises the pot with a Jack, he will play that hand to the end.

But if a higher card raises that Jack, then he will throw his hand away as he feels certain he is beat.

I just can't see this scenario of chasing your tens vs the jacks as profitable, even if it's heads up.

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I don't think he is chasing jacks in his mind in this statement - I think it's just that jacks show up so much more often as part of a straight draw than a pair that he feels at that point his tens are good - but if a higher card raises, then his pair is probably "out-paired."

But I haven't read it in a couple years, so I don't remember the context of this comment.

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The key point is the number of opponents. In one, the Hi-card a 'J' has raised, which is expected to try to take the ante's.

The call is advised, because the T's are likely the 'best' hand, and if they aren't are not far behind heads up, even against JJA.

In the other situation, he has 2 overcards against the pair, which is a bad spot even if it is the 'best' hand. It's just too likely that even T's up will lose to a better hand on 7th.

Salmon · #19 10-09-2007, 07:45 PM

He's assuming that he can get heads-up against the player with the J up-card AND that the player who raised with it only has a pair of J's only part of the time when he raises with a J up-card. He advises playing them to the end because assuming raises on 3rd street and betting and possibly raising on 4th and 5th street, the pot is too big at that point to fold unless defeat is absolutely certain, i.e. when the door card is paired, or when a four flush or four straight comes up on 6th street.