Cheating at AP, updated cliff notes

[SGspecial]

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Druff's change of attitude is kinda pissing me off [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Dont give up/settle for that crap. really appears like 'we' have AP by the balls just by the info we already have, and N82 has mentioned info that he's kept secret thus far...

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What incentives do people have to keep playing at Absolute after Absolute comes forward with a story saying "Yep, we had a superuser account, and current or former executives of the company used it to steal your money. Our bad!" I think Druff is completely right that it's hopeless to expect AP to admit to anything.

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For all the non-AP players: I hope you realize that you have the right to be pissed and spout whatever opinions you want regardless of what DD and other monetary victims of this crime decide to do. Nothing they say or do is going to change that, just like there's a <1% chance that anything we say or do is going to get AP to cop to superusers and blow up their company. This isn't a class action lawsuit where everyone involved has to sign on to any agreement. Oh wait, you didn't actually lose 700k in the deal anyway.

To all the high stakes APers: I hope you find some solution (settlement, plea bargain, etc.) which convinces AP to give you your hard earned money back.

[jgunnip]

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If you're not going to be satisfied with anything but a complete mea culpa on AP's part, you'd have a better chance waiting to see flying pigs and hell frozen over.

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[Dan Druff]

Hooooooooooooo boy.

Well, I see that most of you aren't happy with my attempted solution here, so I guess it's not going to work.

First off, it's ludicrous to suggest that I got paid off in any way. I have not calculated yet what I lost to GRAYCAT, but I think it's something in the neighborhood of 12k. While that's a substantial sum of money, it wouldn't have much of an impact on my life or bankroll either way. I have not been paid back a dime from this, nor has anyone offered me any hush money. Furthermore, I would not accept any kind of payoff, even if it were a million dollars.

I told Roger that paying us back with the "chip dumping" excuse would probably satisfy a lot of people. I guess I was wrong. When he calls back, I'll have to back away from that stance. It's too bad, because I felt that was the best way for us to get both the money and an implied admission of guilt.

I agree that a full admission of guilt would give the 2+2 community the most respect and trust in AP at this point. However, as I mentioned earlier, the casual player won't see it that way.

If we get back the money (and therefore an implied admission of guilt), the story eventually dies down and nobody directly admits to anything. While 2+2 may forever reference it, the mass media (poker and otherwise) will find the conclusion unexciting and lose interest.

If they admit that former CEOs of the company (who spammed 2+2 as recently as June '07) utilized superuser accounts to cheat people, then it becomes a huge story that never dies and everyone hears about.

You guys need to realize that "informed 2+2-type player" does not equal "casual player who doesn't read poker forums".

In any case, since the vast majority here find my compromise offer to be insufficient, and since I am trying to speak for the masses, I will tell Roger that we desire a full admission as to what went on, along with steps being taken to prevent it in the future.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I don't think it's the best way to go. But that's the way I'll proceed.

[rothko]

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Seriously, I can't believe Druff is getting all this flack for trying to find the a solution in which he is reimbursed. Given that AP will have a hard time recovering from this, period, it's not unreasonable for him to think that restitution with no admission is the best case scenario, and given the amount of "skin in the game" he has...

I'm just saying that it's pretty easy to take a stand on principle with someone else's money.

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nobody's taking a stand on someone else's money. we want AP to pay the players and clear up everything else.

[A2steaksauce]

I would say that refunding my 9k would be a big step, but certainly not the only one, in the process of redeeming themselves. Despite being cheated, and lied to, I would seriously consider playing at AP again if the following were to occur:
1. full refund
2. apology
3. admission of the security breach and all the details concerning it.
4. An independent audit to verify #3.
5. A completely reorganization of AP's security and management and a detailed plan on how to ensure that nothing like this could ever occur in the future.

[gumpzilla]

At this point coming clean doesn't just mean saying "yes, there was a security breach." It means saying "yes, there was a security breach, and we covered it up, or our security is so laughably incompetent as to not even merit the title." Once it's gotten that far, what reason is there to take anything they say seriously?

[yellowbluebus]

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10/17 update:

The Potripper account belongs to AJ Green


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Cliff notes on how this was determined?

[adanthar]

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I would like to speak on the phone with someone at AP who is relatively high up if possible. Anyone from AP can feel free to email me or PM.

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Me too.

All:

Last week, AP could in fact have gotten away with Dan's idea. It's not even an inherently bad idea; we all know that none of the people playing with any of the 5 billion other legitimate accounts on that site were affected, so if they'd settled up behind the scenes and assured everyone privately, it might have been stopped there. However, that was before they denied the whole thing AND DIDN'T EVEN GIVE THE CHIPDUMPED MONEY BACK and it blew up in their face.

Right now, the only way for AP to survive as a viable company is to get rid of the people involved in this, hire the .xls whistleblower back or give him a settlement (I personally am not doing a [censored] thing to stop leaning on them until that happens) and reassure their clientele. It doesn't have to be a splash on the login screen, but it sure as hell does have to be public in some manner.

Anything else at this point is sending the exact opposite signal to the poker community AND TO WASHINGTON, D.C. from the one we should all be sending. It's too late to take care of things the way that gamblers always have, privately. As of right now, AP's best bet to survive is to do it as a transparently operated room with more honesty and more accountability than anyone else in the business.

That, or nothing.

[Toonces]

I think you people are crazy. The internet poker world is the wild west. Just to have a chance to get their money back is a big win. What exactly do you expect AP to do? There are no authorities to turn some bad execs into. Who cares if AP lives or dies? People will stay if the fish and the other good things about AP outweigh the bad. If you are aggreived, then cash out of AP, go to another site and be sure to spread the gospel.

When it comes down to it, there is really nothing preventing a failing site from just taking the deposits and running. Or just stonewalling and going about business as usual. So, take your money, know in your heart what happened. Noone's required to sign a non-disclosure. The only thing you lose is that AP never admit's their little secret, and life goes on however everyone sees fit.

Druff, What you are experiencing is the problem with loose conglomorations of people like MoveOn.org. Your solution is well-thought out, and everyone will know what it means (i.e. Implied Admission of Guilt). But I think it's a bad idea to back off of your plan because of the negative response posted here.

[zen_rounder]

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I honestly feel as if Dan Druff has been bought off or something silly because his new stance seems illogical and different from his past reactions.

To imply that AP can't simply say something to the tune of the following is silly, imo:

"Yes, #363 exists, as do various other accounts that were created when we were beta-testing the site. We needed these accounts to ensure that our software worked adequately. These accounts were intended to be dismissed once real-money play began on AP. The fact that one of them was hijacked and used to cheat behind our backs is unfortunate and will certainly never happen again"

[/ QUOTE ]never happen again LOL