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  #1  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:01 PM
JimmyRare JimmyRare is offline
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Default QQ meets allin on turn

Villian is standard TAG, seems to be 3betting little lighter than standard.
I am pretty unsure on each street here, what line do you suggest, and why?



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No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
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Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">HERO raises to $2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $7</font>, 3 folds, HERO calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($14.75, 2 players)
HERO checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $12</font>, HERO calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($38.75, 2 players)
HERO checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO is all-in $40.57</font>, HERO folds.
Uncalled bets: $40.57 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $38.75
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:12 PM
Bantam222 Bantam222 is offline
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Default Re: QQ meets allin on turn

You can make this hand easier by 4betting preflop. The flop is fairly good for you, if you are going to take this line i call the push. Your hand is underrepped and you are getting 2:1 now.
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  #3  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:22 PM
JimmyRare JimmyRare is offline
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Default Re: QQ meets allin on turn

[ QUOTE ]
You can make this hand easier by 4betting preflop. The flop is fairly good for you, if you are going to take this line i call the push. Your hand is underrepped and you are getting 2:1 now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you are probably right.

What if I 4bet preflop and get called, do I open push the same flop?
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  #4  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:50 PM
Jailblazers Jailblazers is offline
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Default Re: QQ meets allin on turn

Yes open push after you 4bet because your stack would be less than the size of the pot.

As played, I like the way you just called the flop because this hand is likely getting all-in either way and calling looks weak. Check-raise all-in is basically turning our hand into a bluff.

Call shove on the turn. If he has been 3betting light I would say that 99 and JJ are also in his range.
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  #5  
Old 11-23-2007, 07:52 PM
Speedlimits Speedlimits is offline
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Default Re: QQ meets allin on turn

stack sizes?

also if villain is 3betting you light why are you not 4betting?

call.
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  #6  
Old 11-23-2007, 08:18 PM
Pokey Pokey is offline
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Default Re: QQ meets allin on turn

[ QUOTE ]
You can make this hand easier by 4betting preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not yet convinced of this.

Being OOP in a three-bet pot really sucks, especially since someone else did the three-betting. You don't need to four-bet preflop necessarily, but you DO need a plan for the rest of the hand.

Here are some potential plans you could choose.

<font color="blue">1. Screw it -- I'm all in.</font>

Plan: just four-bet all-in preflop.

Advantages: prevents expensive postflop FTOP mistakes in the event of an ugly flop. Inflicts expensive preflop FTOP mistakes on our opponent if he chooses to call with JJ- or AQ, or if he chooses to fold AK/KK (highly unlikely). Totally nullifies our positional disadvantage.

Disadvantages: usually pushes out most or all weaker hands, winning the very least when we're ahead. Against AK, gets the money in while we're a coinflip, rather than postflop where we're at a significant advantage. Has no hope of saving our stack if we're up against KK/AA.

<font color="blue">2. Flop push.</font>

Plan: smooth-call preflop, check-raise all-in on any flop that does not have an A or a K.

Advantages: usually breaks off an extra bluff if villain has a weaker hand than ours, so instead of winning $7 we'll win $17 or so. Against AK, the money goes in much better than if we'd pushed preflop. Let's us escape with most of our stack intact if we flop VERY badly.

Disadvantages: subject to being bluffed off our hand postflop if an A or K falls. Gives a stack to a sneaky monster that might have folded preflop otherwise (think 66 on a flop of J86). The hand gets markedly harder if our opponent checks behind on the flop.

<font color="blue">3. Turtle.</font>

Plan: call down.

Advantages: wins the most from an aggressive opponent who decides to bluff. Prevents any FTOP mistakes from folding the best hand. Loses the least to an absolute monster. Teaches your opponent that when you are passive that does not mean you are helpless, making him play more straightforwardly against you in the future.

Disadvantages: wins little when you are ahead. Gives many free cards to AK. Lets your opponent draw entirely too cheaply. Pays off several streets if you are screwed on the flop.

All of these choices make tradeoffs, swapping folding equity for potential postflop profits. I'd say none of the choices is necessarily "best," but that you should switch up between them depending on table conditions, your opponent(s), your image, and what he's seen you do before.

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is fairly good for you, if you are going to take this line i call the push. Your hand is underrepped and you are getting 2:1 now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this guy two-barreling all-in against a preflop raiser and flop caller with unimproved overs? I'm thinking his range is fairly slanted towards things that have you over a barrel. If you've committed to calling down on the flop, I don't have a problem with this, but it's going to be a VERY high-variance play. Now, one thing that makes calling look like a viable option to me is that this opponent doesn't WANT you to call. The flop bet was much bigger than it needed to be, and the turn bet was ridiculously large. He still had an extra street to get the money in if that was his choice. Perhaps he's afraid of the draws (99, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), but it kind of looks like he's semibluffing to me. I think you're frequently going to be ahead here, though villain has outs.

If we look at his preflop three-betting range as being bigger pocket pairs, we're ahead of 99 and JJ and we're behind AA, KK, QQ (unlikely), TT, 88, and 77. If villain gets out of line with 22-66 that helps quite a bit. If we throw in A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] it doesn't change much.

Even without adding any bluffs, this is still a very thin call. After messing around with PokerStove a bit, it looks as though you're safe: even with a range of 77+, hero has 35% pot equity and should call. With no overcards on the flop, it's just entirely too unlikely that you're behind for this to be a fold.

Plug your nose when you call, however, and be prepared to swear, because you may need it.
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  #7  
Old 11-25-2007, 12:05 PM
JimmyRare JimmyRare is offline
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Default Re: QQ meets allin on turn

[ QUOTE ]
You don't need to four-bet preflop necessarily, but you DO need a plan for the rest of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

My plan was that I shouldn't get into "screw-it-mode", instead play poker, therefore I called preflop.

When the flop comes with two tens and in a reraised pot I really didn't think he would fire two barrels without a really strong hand.
He won't put me on a ten and I won't put him on one.
This made me feel that he most likely wanted to make this shove to have me call with 99-JJ, QQ. (Also to protect his hand )

However, if I now must call in this spot even though I am not sure where I stand it's EV is 0, so it shouldn't matter.
This leads to a lower variance play to fold which is my prefered style at micro stakes.
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