Playing against a light 3 bettor

[Bulletproof Monk]

meh i like it tbh

[ValarMorghulis]

65s is of course better to have here on the flop than 88 but 65s can shove over less flops so the preflop call with 65s is worse.

with 88, if call the threebet we have to make these kind of moves on decent to good flops. Of course a frequent 3bettor (who cbets a lot) folds more than a 1/3 of the time. OOP I would play this the same every time. IP, I don't mind calling and probably stacking off on turn.

Of course whenever I do this, they have AQ.

[atmstuck]

Or KK...

[Fonkey123]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares about his calling range when he's bluffing so often?

[/ QUOTE ]

you should care. it dramatically affects your overall equity.

This is why I think it's much better to do this with AJ (not that calling pf with AJ would be good, but you get the point) rather than 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying what hands you'd rather have makes no difference. [censored] I'd rather have top set every hand. You look at this individual hand in a vacuum combined with reads. Shoving here is +EV, because he's bluffing so often. Of course when you get called you're crushed, but his calling range isn't important because shoving is +EV with 88.

We can discuss the merits of calling the flop having a higher expectation; however, pokerstoving his calling range is stupid because of course it has us crushed.

[SinkRox]

No-ones mentiond if its better or not to shove the flop if there's a FD out there.

Does everyone agree we have more FE when there's no FD on the flop?

[McBeef]

i really like the fold % analysis barrin, very helpful

[martijn]

this is good

[kaby]

[ QUOTE ]
You look at this individual hand in a vacuum combined with reads. Shoving here is +EV, because he's bluffing so often. Of course when you get called you're crushed, but his calling range isn't important because shoving is +EV with 88.


[/ QUOTE ]

We need him to fold 58% of the time to make shoving +ev with 88 (barrins calc was incorrect imho, and nobody corrected me so i guess i didn't make a mistake [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) ... that's a lot and pretty close imho... with 65s we need him to fold 28% of the time which is a huge difference

if someone gives me a 3bet range i'll go ahead and count the combinatations to see weither shoving 88 is +ev or not

also i'm not so sure you can shove more flops with 88 (when you flop a set + as a complete bluff ... but you still need the same Qhigh/Jhigh/rag board) compared to 65s (two pair, combodraws, every flushdraw, every oesd, every gutshot+pair on like a Q/J high board)

[Barrin6]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares about his calling range when he's bluffing so often?

[/ QUOTE ]

you should care. it dramatically affects your overall equity.

This is why I think it's much better to do this with AJ (not that calling pf with AJ would be good, but you get the point) rather than 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying what hands you'd rather have makes no difference. [censored] I'd rather have top set every hand. You look at this individual hand in a vacuum combined with reads. Shoving here is +EV, because he's bluffing so often. Of course when you get called you're crushed, but his calling range isn't important because shoving is +EV with 88.

We can discuss the merits of calling the flop having a higher expectation; however, pokerstoving his calling range is stupid because of course it has us crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fonkey,
I can't believe you just said this. You know better than this.

And kaby,
Thanks for correcting my math.

edit:

Also to add results
<font color="white">
He fires flop, I flat called.

Turn came a 5.
He fires again like less than half potleaving $68 or so. I said [censored] it and shove. He calls and shows 77. And I hold.

</font>

[Xanta]

Fonkey I think that you're missing a big point about preferred bluffing hands. Basically we get to select a few select times to make this bluff before our dynamic changes and we get looked up too much to semibluff shove much here. If we get 2 or 3 free walks where he folds TT (which is usually what I find I can pull off versus a light 3bettor), we should make our moves when we have the best possible equity.

It's one of the few spots in cash where 'waiting for a better spot' kind of makes sense because instead of making a +$1 EV shove, you can make a much better one later on since he's gonna remain exploitable until you start playing back.