66- A hand in which I begin to suspect I suck at the pokers

[One Outer]

Villain in this hand is MP. He is an old white guy, but not a nit. He's playing (this is anecdotal, of course) 45-50% of his hands. He has shown down an T9o on the button before (not sure that's helpful, but maybe it could give you an idea of what he's doing). Button is a young guy like me except better looking and not fat. One of those retards that is wearing a "with pre-ripped brim" cap from some mall chain store like Hollister. He has only been at the table for thirty minutes and hasn't played an excessive amount of hands. I already suspect he is a donktard; in the one hand he raised PF before this he was in EP and showed down A8o. So anyhoos.

Canterbury Park 6/12, full game, last night, written down on a cocktail napkin...

Hero is in EMP with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG limps, UTG+1 folds, Hero limps, MP (Villain) limps, HJ and CO fold, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, all call

Flop (6 handed, 12 SB):

5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB, SB and UTG check, Hero bets, Villain raises, Button calls, BB, SB and UTG fold, Hero threebangs, Villain calls, Button calls

Turn (3 Handed, 10 BB):

7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, Villain calls, Button calls

River (3 players, 13 BB)

8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero...

Is this a pretty easy value bet on the river? I thought it was close. Maybe I have nothing to lose...I think Villain is on clubs. I fear the button is calling me down with 99-JJ or something like that. Then again, I think he might also call me with Ace high.

Oh, and I think my flop threebet is deeply retarded and spewy. I'm just creating a big pot on a drawy board with a marginal hand that I can't protect against two opponents who almost certainly both have overcards and at least one of which also has a good draw. It reeks of reverse implied odds.

Any thoughts appreciated.
--------------

I'm also going to tack on a fun no content hand. This actually happened to me last night. Villain is total donktard. He is this little guy that looks like he lives at Canterbury. This works way better if you picture a 5 foot Asian guy hunched over his checks while he keeps raising me.

Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero raises, 4 folds, CO calls, Button (Villain) calls, SB folds, BB calls

Flop (4 players, 8.5 SB)

K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Villain raises, Hero calls, CO calls

Turn (3 players, 6.75 BB):

8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero donks, CO folds, Villain raises, Hero loads the UHaul for three town, Villian wins mayoral election for four town, Hero has his finger on the button in five town, Villain calls

River (heads up, 16.75 BB):

A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets, Villain calls

Hero, of course, has quads

Villain shows down...44

I love Canterbury Park.

[KitCloudkicker]

whats your read on villain's postflop play? his preflop tendencies may or may not matter in this spot (although if he's bad preflop chances are he's bad post)


i dont think your flop 3 bet is that horrible b/c you are OOP and the pot is large. its better than giving a free card.

a better line, though (imo), is to call the flop raise and then b/f all non-A, non club turns. i wouldnt check a turn blank.

check the river.

EDIT: forget the turn b/f. we picked up 6 outs, folding is bad.

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want you can call the flop raise and then donk all non-A, non club turns. i wouldnt check a turn blank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I would never check a blank turn in this spot either. The call/donk occurred to me at the time. I don't like it because I think I'm ahead often enough here that I want to charge the extra small bet to the flush draw and/or overs. The flush draw is calling, and not raising, a blank turn anyway so I get that bet regardless. My big concern is not being able to protect my hand. On the upshot, however, I do get the extra BB of value.

My read is that he slowplays big hands a lot. When he raises the flop I feel that it makes a 5 unlikely and of course I can completely rule that out with the just call on the turn. However, given his preflop looseness, I think that he could easily have a 7 or 8 in his hand and he will call. He would also play 44 this way, but he might not call the river with it.

[Scarmiglio]

meh. Villain looks like he has a 5 and doesn't love his kicker or has a bigger pair. He might be playing A3 or A4 this way or a fd, but none of those possibilities makes me want to 3-bet the flop. As we're oop I would call down unless I hit one of my outs. A lot of villains will give us a free showdown on this board unless they're holding a 5 or a fh.

Kit - what do you mean when you say that 3-betting the flop is better than giving a free card? There are already 2-bets in the pot...

[profpeebody]

I like play on all streets.

check the river, I don't think a worse hand calls if you bet: 44,3x,Ax, busted draw.

[Bob T.]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a pretty easy value bet on the river? I thought it was close. Maybe I have nothing to lose..

[/ QUOTE ]

Online, I think you have a value bet. At the park, I think the odds that a better hand checks behind you are so high, that you probably are better off checking, and hoping for a free showdown. There aren't too many middle aged white guys in the yellow chip games that are going to bluff you on this river, so if you check, I don't think that you have to pay him off.

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't too many middle aged white guys in the yellow chip games that are going to bluff you on this river, so if you check, I don't think that you have to pay him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good point. He's never going to make me pay him.