my SSLH forum issues, and a hand that's probably way standard

[One Outer]

I have this one hand, for starters, but I also have concerns. I feel like I might not be using the forum optimally. I think I'm going about it the right way but if I were would I be feeling more confused than ever? I feel like I don't have any idea why I'm doing anything at the table anymore. Posting my thoughts on hands and having 6 people tell me I couldn't be more wrong is disconcerting, especially when I can't see their point. I don't have a problem with the criticism, I just feel bad about myself when not only was I wrong but I can't even see how I was wrong. Maybe I should stop playing until I'm not so confused.

This hand is a great example. I look at it, and at the time I played it, I didn't know what to do on the flop or river. It's probably ok, but I don't know that and it scares me that I can't figure it out for myself. Either way, here it is.

BB is pretty donktastic. I don't think he would bet the flop with less than a 7 but he consistely gets married to a flopped top pair no matter how bad the board comes. He plays tons of hands. MP, as far as I can tell, is pretty typical loose passive. I haven't seen him raise preflop and he's called down very light twice that I have witnessed.

live full game 6/12

Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

2 folds, EP limps, MP limps, LMP limps, HJ folds, Hero limps, button folds, both blinds complete

Flop (6 players, 5.5 SB):

7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, EP calls, MP calls, LMP folds, Hero raises, SB folds, all call

Turn (4 players, 6.5 BB):

9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

all check to Hero who bets, BB calls, MP calls

River (three players, 9.5 BB):

6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

both check, Hero bets

Standard?

[RossSi]

Seems pretty standard. I like the flop raise for a free card to freeze the passives. Then we hit an out with top pair so we bet, then the board pairs but there's not reason for that to worry us - it's a blank really - so we value bet the river. Nice hand.

[KitCloudkicker]

i raise pf but the rest seems fine, unless BB is prone to 3 betting flops or donk betting turns.

but let's hear your thinking behind this hand.

[One Outer]

On the flop I feel like I probably have an equity edge, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 30%, more likely a little less. I also have position, and I can take a free turn card if I wish. My overcard outs are more likely to be clean than if I had a hand like QT because they're lower, I think. Is there a term for that? So I guess the flop raise makes sense from that point of view.

But then again, I have a weak straight draw, a weak BDFD and two small overs against three hands. It feels like raising can't be right but I know that if I posted this hand in the forum and didn't raise the flop I would get 6 responses telling me to raise the flop. And I don't know why and after I was told I still wouldn't get it. So in the end, if you can call that jumbled pile of crap thinking, I'm essentially raising because I think I'm supposed to. This also feels like way too much thinking.

On the turn I think I obviously bet. On the river I don't know what to do. Again I think I'm supposed to bet but I don't have a plan for if I get raised because I have no idea what to do if that happened.

I find it incredibly hard to construct a plan for playing my hand. I've been told several times, I remember the times you and James told me in particular, that those hands at the time look like I don't have a plan. It's because I largely don't. I find all the information I have to consider in the moment to be completely overwhelming, which turns into confusion, which turns into paralysis.

[gobbledygeek]

Ha, gotta love it when you feel out to lunch! I feel that way all the time (see today's thread regarding QQ against flop top pair doubling up on turn, I'm thinking my possible fold idea might be clueless...).

Preflop I usually play the same way but I'm sure it's close (JTs I'd raise). I wonder what poker stove says about this hand against x amount of people. I might also raise if I've been card dead and appearing as way too tight/nitty in order to loosen up my image (although I doubt that matters).

On the flop I don't think I ever raise for a free card on a gutshot alone, but you've got overs (although somewhat tainted due to completing the straight) as well as a backdoor flush draw. I'd count outs as fairly close to 7; using 2/4 rule that's about 28% pot equity, with 3 opponents the raise is pretty much breakeven equity-wise but the free card play sells it for me.

Turn you have the top pair plus lottsa outs to improve; I bet that every time.

River you have two pair; anyone with a 7 is paying you off, I'd bet/call.

This clueless noob doesn't see anything wrong with this hand.

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop I feel like I probably have an equity edge, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 30%, more likely a little less. I also have position, and I can take a free turn card if I wish. My overcard outs are more likely to be clean than if I had a hand like QT because they're lower, I think. Is there a term for that? So I guess the flop raise makes sense from that point of view.

But then again, I have a weak straight draw, a weak BDFD and two small overs against three hands. It feels like raising can't be right but I know that if I posted this hand in the forum and didn't raise the flop I would get 6 responses telling me to raise the flop. And I don't know why and after I was told I still wouldn't get it. So in the end, if you can call that jumbled pile of crap thinking, I'm essentially raising because I think I'm supposed to. This also feels like way too much thinking.

On the turn I think I obviously bet. On the river I don't know what to do. Again I think I'm supposed to bet but I don't have a plan for if I get raised because I have no idea what to do if that happened.

I find it incredibly hard to construct a plan for playing my hand. I've been told several times, I remember the times you and James told me in particular, that those hands at the time look like I don't have a plan. It's because I largely don't. I find all the information I have to consider in the moment to be completely overwhelming, which turns into confusion, which turns into paralysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok 1st step, dont overthink hands. in all honestly, once you become accustomed to them, 95% of limit hands in B&M low limit games require minimal thought.

lets play this hand from the beginning, using a risk reward analysis. start with preflop.

you have an excellent multiway hand in great position. you have limpers to you and a chance to buy the button and cement your position further. you probably have a very small equity edge. your hand is very well hidden as well if you raise PF. if everyone checks to you and you whiff, you can take a free card and pick up a draw on the turn. risks: running into a huge hand after you which could 3 bet. tying yourself to a pot in which you flop only top pair. adding it all up, i think the best play here is to raise PF.

now the flop.

you have a pretty decent draw that may/may not have an equity edge. heres where your read comes in. if you raise the flop, you risk having the BB 3 bet, thereby shutting out the field and leaving you HU with what now looks like a very weak draw. on the other hand, if the BB does not 3 bet, you have a great shot at a free card on the turn, and very deceptive winner when you make your hand on a later street. so again, it depends on your read of the BB. does he donk flops with strong hands? does he 3 bet a lot? does he refuse to C/C the turn after calling a flop raise?

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]
does he donk flops with strong hands? does he 3 bet a lot? does he refuse to C/C the turn after calling a flop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

don't know, don't know and don't know.