Wowwow... new stud structure on Stars.

[Micturition Man]

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And I think a lot of folks make too much of different ante structures. Especially for stud/8, the mix of hands that you played with the $15 ante shouldn't change all that much with the $25 ante. It's not like you're suddenly going to play T98 or K44.

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This is dead wrong actually. The "new" (but now superseded) structure should change play a lot on 3rd and 4th street.

The most extreme situation is where everyone folds to the 2nd to last player. He used to be getting 1.5:1 on a steal... now he's getting an incredible 2.5:1.

In a nutshell this makes it mandatory for BI to defend with almost any 2 low cards and for the other guy to try to steal with any 2 low cards himself, or any 3 big cards. (This is just my off the cuff estimate.)

Absolutely any pair or 3 straight becomes playable in this situation now. (Ignoring dead cards.)

This also makes a big difference in a hu match. Big card goes from 60:100 to 150:100 on a steal. The old structure penalized the overaggro players who thought they should constantly try to steal... the new structure makes their play correct.

Also in non-headsup spots playing razz hands for a steal or against a completion become correct far more often than before.

Finally on 4th any peel that would have been slightly incorrect now becomes significantly correct with the extra $100 in there.

[Andy B]

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In a nutshell this makes it mandatory for BI to defend with almost any 2 low cards....

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I doubt this very much.

[Micturition Man]

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In a nutshell this makes it mandatory for BI to defend with almost any 2 low cards....

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I doubt this very much.

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Try some math.

If last to act is getting 2.5:1 on a steal he only needs it to work 28.6% of the time to show an *automatic* profit.

If BI starts with a low card up he will have 3 low cards 35% of the time, a buried big pair 3.5% of the time, and a 3-flush (without 3 low) 2.4% of the time. He will a split pair with a K-9 kicker 4.7% of the time.

(I have left out 3-straights that include high cards such as 987 and T98.)

All that adds up to 44.4% of our distribution.

So stealer is still showing an automatic profit of around $90.

(NB I am two-tabling as I write this so I could be making a heinous math error somewhere.)

So if the foregoing is true and you are not defending with a large % of your 2-low hands, then stealer should clearly raise 100%.

And if stealer is raising 100% you clearly should play all but your worst hands (and probably even them in some spots).

[roggles]

Post deleted by roggles

[Micturition Man]

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You're not taking into account that making the call on 3rd street is not closing the action. You assume defending your BI is just about calling once and then that's it. In fact you might have to call on every street, and then you're getting much closer to 1:1 on your money

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No, I'm not assuming this at all.

[roggles]

Ohps, yeah, I barely even read what you said. I thought we were regurgitating the usual reason as to why we should always call with junk on the BI. I'm sorry.

Anyway, yes, if people fold early people coming in late have a huge steal advantage. I still think it would be pretty bad to call with a two low in stud8, since this is just absurdly difficult to play on later streets with the 8 qualifier in place. I much rather prefer to punish theft by raising good low hands and hands with some type of high potential.

Are you taking into account that the stealer will be raised and usually won't fold a fair amount of the time?

[Micturition Man]

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Ohps, yeah, I barely even read what you said. I thought we were regurgitating the usual reason as to why we should always call with junk on the BI. I'm sorry.

Anyway, yes, if people fold early people coming in late have a huge steal advantage. I still think it would be pretty bad to call with a two low in stud8, since this is just absurdly difficult to play on later streets with the 8 qualifier in place. I much rather prefer to punish theft by raising good low hands and hands with some type of high potential.

Are you taking into account that the stealer will be raised and usually won't fold a fair amount of the time?

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Well I was talking about the extreme case for ante size altering play, which to my mind is when everyone folds to the player who is right before the bring-in.

My argument was that unless you are defending with lots of 2 card low hands (say (K5)2 for example), the person in this position will show an automatic profit raising any hand, which logically should not be the case.

In other words the stealer could fold 100% of the time to a reraise and he would still be showing a profit if we are folding a large % of our 2-low hands.

And FWIW I think if both players are playing optimally the stealer should probably never fold to a reraise from the bringin. If he can't continue with an overlay of 2 BB in the pot he shouldn't have just folded in the first place.

Another point I wonder about is whether the large ante actually means you should start limping in this position more, strange as that may sound.

After all as the ante increases there will be some theoretical point where you can no longer fold anything, even when your distribution is worse than the BI's. (Say you have a 9 up versus the BI's 2.)

But anyway...

[lane mcbride]

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I've been triple tabling stud a few times myself. Glad to know I'm not the only one, as I was fearing maybe this isn't optimal 99.9%.

Someday, I may even step up to 4 stud tables at once, but this would only be for HI games of course.

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fwiw, i often 12 table stud. usually a mixture of high and high low. that's from .50-1 to 10-20 though, not any higher.

[TheEye]

12 tabling?...lol...are you the brainman?

And where do you play you said?
I have never seen anyone playing that many tables on the major 2 sites, and I can't imagine you can find more than 8 active tables on any other one. Ofcourse you might be playing on all of them.

I'd be interested to see some stats if they exist.

[lane mcbride]

i play on ft, stars, and absolute... and yes, it takes a balance of all three to find 12 tables usually.