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#81
08-31-2007, 01:35 PM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
I read your responses, and I think your ideas on hand 1 are wrong. If you are telling us we shouldn't be trying to B-3B this hand you are nuts. [/ QUOTE ] No, I am not. If you see he has other hands, you want to try to B3B. You do NOT want to try to B3B here. The standard play NOT knowing his hand is to B3B... But since we do, we deviate from standard. [ QUOTE ] ou think KT calls the 3B/push every single time it raises? [/ QUOTE ] No, if you read my answer, it's a nonzero time it will fold. However, this gap - the times they fold IF they raise - is not where you can make money THIS hand knowing their cards. [ QUOTE ] But getting money in the flop is trying to get your opponent off his hand, it's to get money in when you hit. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think so many villains who call the flop and bet the turn, will be folding to a turn CR, and you've won a lot more money. I'm surprised this line hasn't been mentioned because I think it's the best line in this scenario. [/ QUOTE ] That line is my default without knowing their hand. (if they dont pop me, I check push, if they check behind, i may bluff the river) [ QUOTE ] Hand 2...bet bet bet. Obv. [/ QUOTE ] It is obvious but plans on the turn etc. are somewhat interesting. [ QUOTE ] Chaostrasize: I think Bobo's argument is that the cards that hit us are the only real scare cards in the deck, thus making it more likely that villian will just fold if we bet when those particular cards fall. So building the pot for when we hit is somewhat moot because he folds a lot of the time. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, this is fairly dead on. [ QUOTE ] Interesting analysis Bobbo. However, it doesn't allow our opponent to make a big mistake. We have complete knowledge and our opponents doesn't. Yet, we aren't causing him to make a huge mistake unless he decides to check the turn. His biggest edge in the hand is on the turn when we miss. If he makes a mistake at that point we profit. It seems my earlier post about c/ring has been somewhat ignored but this is why I like a c/r on the turn. We raise before the flop and either bet the flop or c/c. Then on the turn we give him the option to make a mistake by checking, and if he doesn't comply we give him the option of making a bigger mistake by folding. We raised before the flop gave some action on a king high flop, then c/r the turn. I really doubt KT is calling very often to that kind of heat. And this line gives him two options to make fairly large mistakes. [/ QUOTE ] Great post and yes, that is why check pushing the turn (with TPTK+ and solid draws) is a good strat. And generally is my default. However, there are a bunch of ways villain can make a mistake this hand: 1. Not bet when he should 2. Call a bet when he should not both scenarios are very likely. 
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#82
08-31-2007, 01:36 PM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
So either I'm missing something fundamental, or Bobbo is playing in much more different games than I'm seeing. Which is it? [/ QUOTE ] I just play in games where people don't fold top pair. I don't eithe though - if you can't beat them, join them!
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#83
08-31-2007, 01:43 PM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Interesting analysis Bobbo. However, it doesn't allow our opponent to make a big mistake. We have complete knowledge and our opponents doesn't. Yet, we aren't causing him to make a huge mistake unless he decides to check the turn. His biggest edge in the hand is on the turn when we miss. If he makes a mistake at that point we profit. It seems my earlier post about c/ring has been somewhat ignored but this is why I like a c/r on the turn. We raise before the flop and either bet the flop or c/c. Then on the turn we give him the option to make a mistake by checking, and if he doesn't comply we give him the option of making a bigger mistake by folding. We raised before the flop gave some action on a king high flop, then c/r the turn. I really doubt KT is calling very often to that kind of heat. And this line gives him two options to make fairly large mistakes. [/ QUOTE ] Great post and yes, that is why check pushing the turn (with TPTK+ and solid draws) is a good strat. And generally is my default. However, there are a bunch of ways villain can make a mistake this hand: 1. Not bet when he should 2. Call a bet when he should not both scenarios are very likely. [/ QUOTE ] Number 2 was the only issue I found when posting my response. Obviously him calling when we hit a flush or an ace is a mistake, but is it bigger than folding the turn with ~70% equity in a pot that was raised and bet on the flop? As well, the frequency of that mistake is something that we should look at. How often is he calling a decent bet when we make a rather obvious draw? Alternatively, how often is he folding to a turn c/r? I'm guessing the latter happens slightly more often and is usually going to be a bigger mistake most of the time.
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#84
08-31-2007, 02:42 PM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
Yeah, Bobbo you're way underestimating exactly how big that non-zero % that they bet/fold turn is. If they bet/fold even just 10% of the time, then c/shove turn is +EV and therefore a better option than c/c.
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#85
08-31-2007, 03:43 PM
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Re: Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So either I'm missing something fundamental, or Bobbo is playing in much more different games than I'm seeing. Which is it? [/ QUOTE ] I just play in games where people don't fold top pair. I don't eithe though - if you can't beat them, join them! [/ QUOTE ] I guess the games are rapidly getting much more aggressive? What level games are these? Site?
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