Donking into the raiser, *theory*

[BobboFitos]

I have alot to say about this. Really though, mainly, it's hard to break this into a segregated topic because all poker hands (and theory) is interwoven. In short though, people are bad at poker, because they put themselves in real bad / tough situations. What I mean is...
I want to discuss leading into the raiser, (because I do it with more frequency then most) but before going into this topic, you must backtrack.
Postflop, in order to lead into the raiser, you must have:
1. Called a preflop raise, giving someone else impetus
2. Been out of position, ceding any positional advantage
I think both (without moderation) are leaks, but again, a separate idea.

So, the reason checking to the raiser is accepted as the norm, is, well, people expect the preflop raiser to fire regardless of whether they hit the flop or not. This sets up the typical dynamic (I think most posters here have been in this situation countless times!) where it forces the caller to define their hand; ie. they will either check call or check raise, (if they check fold, the hand is over, and the PFR's holding is meaningless!) and if they check-call, it gives the pfr control of the hand. (Which is what I like the most, being able to dictate the pace of the hand, because even though over a small sample this could backfire, ie. I'm making bad short term decisions, if I can control whether a bets get in the pot on the turn or river I'm going to win out in the end)
Any case, I've found since I've been here in Vegas, I have more situations where I would rather call preflop, rather then 3bet or fold. (Which I'd do alot more online) This is not worth discussing here, but online when I call OOP my hand range is tight. I play very loosely so (thank god!) my opponents give me credit for a wide range and therefore continue to pay me off (when I really should have a set the majority of the time) Anyway, live, I'm never really looking to fold a playable hand, esp. with deep stacks, and with more information at my disposal. (live "reads," yes, lololololol, but people give off so much live even a person like me who lives and breathes internet poker can pick up some small stuff)

Some things to think about:
1. This is the most important thing, and why it's #1, but people online and live do not raise top pair when led into. Online you face bluff raises more often, (people dont respect donk bets!) and online you will also (more often, but still not a high enough frequency) be raise/called by top pair, but it bares mentioning in a game where bet sizing is crucial, being able to determine the bet for the next card is critical.
2. People don't address a donk bet well! Again, online people always assume it is one of three hands: 1. A big draw looking to B3B 2. A big hand looking to emulate a big draw rather then c/r 3. Complete fluff that wants to bluff but doesnt want to c/r air, since they're getting a worse price on their bluff. It somewhat makes leading weak draws and pairs somewhat more interesting, as it gives you flexibility, as you're more likely to interpret their action but they are not likely to unlock yours.
3. Check calling and looking for a showdown is not necessarily a bad play. Again, I wont go into detail about this, but that IS a limit philosophy which DOES have its place in NLH. But on the whole this will feed into a player with any degree of skill, and exacerbates their positional advantage. Again, with those underpairs or mid pair type stuff that would typically be check called (and folded to further action) reversing the decision typically feeds into the advantage.

Some quick examples...
1-Someone raised from EP to 100 in a 9handed game, 2 calls, I call ending the action with J9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from the BB. Flop came A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
This is a lead into the preflop raiser spot
2-2 limps, I overlimped 87o in the CO, the button made it 60 (pot builder) and they called, so obviously I did too. The flop was 4 6 Qr, again I led into the raiser.
3-In early position, 8 handed I open limp (typically I'd open raise here, but it could go either way) 55 and the button isolated raised to 120, SB called and I called. Flop was 6 8 9r, I lead into the raiser.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

lock

[Ship Ship McGipp]

bobbo, i actually read this because i generally enjoy most of what you write. even if i don't want to elaborate (partially because i'm not set on this stuff and have a lot of thinking to do, and mostly because i don't want to give away the toughts i've already had - stfu noobs, i know this is an information board i'll talk about what i want to talk about), i will say one thing that isn't said but should be understood thoroughly:

put two bullets in your gun, and carry a third in your pocket.

[DJ Sensei]

yea, donking is pretty great. really, any bet thats cheap and ends up getting you more information than you give by knocking somebody on their heels is a good bet.

or, say, making somebody both spew a lot of chips and reveal their hand as weak at the same time (!) how can you not love that?

[Trix]

So most of your checks without initiative are check-folds ?

[True]

you say that if they check / call the flop then you are in control of the hand? They still have the same options on the turn as if they had c/red.

[True]

I would also love to know why -

"being out of position"

and "calling a preflop raise"

are leaks....

This would mean that re-raising or calling AA out of position is a leak. Calling preflop with certain hands has a tonne more value than re-raising them more often than not. Sometimes there are many other factors that can increase the value in calling hands as opposed to raising them.

[sMethod]

[ QUOTE ]
yea, donking is pretty great. really, any bet thats cheap and ends up getting you more information than you give by knocking somebody on their heels is a good bet.

or, say, making somebody both spew a lot of chips and reveal their hand as weak at the same time (!) how can you not love that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would an example of the spew be O.raiser raising your donk bet in a fashion that screams weakness allowing you to go over the top with a profitably?

[Jurrr]

[ QUOTE ]
Would an example of the spew be O.raiser raising your donk bet in a fashion that screams weakness allowing you to go over the top with a profitably?

[/ QUOTE ]Which raises of donk bets scream weakness? Is that a bet sizing or timing tell? Or just raises on dry boards?

Isn't frequent donkbetting with a wide range somewhat easily exploited by floating/raising donk-bettors and calling down donkbettors with marginal hands?

BTW which PT/PAHUD stats would best show donk-betting tendencies? High aggression frequency for flow with a relatively low flop checkraise frequency?

[smartalecc5]

i dont htink you froget those type of ppl who donkbet into you every time and mke u want to rip your ears off