Please evaluate turn..KK with A on the flop

[Yads]

Check the turn, he either has a better hand that isn't going away that you're drawing quite live against or he is drawing very slim. The pot isn't big enough to risk having to put in 2 big bets in on a draw.

So now you've gotten check raised and are going to 3 bet. So you think that because he hasn't seen you play a hand hi is now going to try to make a move on you?

[rafiki]

I think the point you may be missing is that you're putting a raise in against a hand you're behind, with only 1 card to come to beat him. There's no value in raising when behind, in a heads up situation, where he won't be folding to your raise. You have no 19 outer here, that's a gross over estimation. If you're willing to attribute a range of hands, then figure that sometimes he's got the flush, sometimes he's got a Q (so your K's are not outs),etc... I'm willing to accept 12ish outs. 1 in 4. Certainly not a scenario where we're trying to pump the draw.

[PokerBob]

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Why is the turn bet bad here?

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You either (a) are beat and he will never ever fold a better hand or (b) have him crucified. If you check the turn, he may bet the river with his worse hand. I cannot stress enough how much of a spew your line is here. The turn bet is very bad. The 3bet is just insane.

[PokerBob]

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I

However, having bet the turn I don't mind the 3bet because it's a "don't f*ck with me" 3bet and that can be important against this type of player even if you don't show your hand down.

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I know there are times when you need to play zoo-keeper, but I don't get doing it in this spot at all. I just see it as "don't [censored] with me or else I will give you 3bets when you should only get 1." What am I missing?

[The DaveR]

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He does not fit the Commerce profile. Young caucasian guy, well dressed in a preppie sweater. He bought in for $1500 and has hit a few hands already. Made a aggressive(by Commerce standards) value 4 bet in one hand.

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I hope it was LMD.

Turn bet is terrible for reasons stated. Checking the turn is hugely standard. 3-betting is pretty terrible.

[sternroolz]

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Why is the turn bet bad here?

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You either (a) are beat and he will never ever fold a better hand or (b) have him crucified. If you check the turn, he may bet the river with his worse hand. I cannot stress enough how much of a spew your line is here. The turn bet is very bad. The 3bet is just insane.

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I reread this thread now that its been dragged up again. I understand why my play was bad. The c/r on the turn totally befuddled me because almost every hand he should have here should have been more aggressive pf or on the flop. So I was less making the play on the basis of my hand, and more so on the range of what I thought he was likely to be holding. But the line of checking behind because he's either way behind, or way ahead and not folding is totally correct.

I am pretty aggressive pf and on the flop and have been trying to expand my range of aggressiveness on the turn. I picked a horrible spot to do it.

[mongidig]

At this point you simply don't have enough information on this player. We can certainly use stereotypes and what we have seen up to this point(two rounds, 4 bet value raise etc) to project what we believe he would cold call with in the SB and how he would play certain hands postflop.

It may well turn out that after playing with this guy for a while that the play you made here was absolutely correct or perhaps absolutely wrong. For instance you may find out this guy could fold an ace to a three bet here after playing it this way.

Since you don't know; I think it makes sense to just check the turn, get to showdown cheaply and get some info on this guy.

[emerson]

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Commerce $20-40, villain has only been sitting for two rounds. He does not fit the Commerce profile. Young caucasian guy, well dressed in a preppie sweater. He bought in for $1500 and has hit a few hands already. Made a aggressive(by Commerce standards) value 4 bet in one hand. Seems TAG.

I have not played a hand since he sat down and have tossed my BB to a raise. I might as well be a piece of granite to this guy.

I open raise K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] mp1. Folded to villian in sb who calls as does moron calling station in the bb.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Checked to me, I bet, villian calls, bb folds.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Checked to me, I bet. Sb raises. I insta three bet.

I didn't want to get outplayed by Q10 or QJ with the queen of spades here. Really, no hand makes too much sense for sb other than a weakish ace or perhaps A10. I didn't think he had the flush here....not a whole lot of flush hands made sense based on the board and based on the way the hand played out thus far, and even if he did have a flush, I didn't consider a Queen high flush and knew he would probably just call if he had a lower flush and I could re evaluate the river. Seems like a TAG would have three bet preflop with most hands that beat me except weakish ace, suited spade connectors or gappers and maybe something like A10(which I can't understand the flop slowplay here). I thought I could fold out weak aces for sure and 14 outs anyway if I can't.

So is my turn play solid/correct? Is there anyway I find a check on the turn due to picking up the flush draw? Is it more correct to just call the c/r and fold the river/call the river(I hate doing either)?

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Don't raise the turn. He should have a drawing hand, like suited cards, in order to play the sb this way. Normally the sb should raise or fold when all others have folded to the preflop raise. He only calls with a drawing hand in which he'd like to have a third person participate. Straight or flush is likely. Just call. You will have to call the river also so if he is bluffing your call could induce another bluff on the river.