Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Internet Gambling > Internet Gambling

View Poll Results: Who is hotter?
Charlize Theron 160 42.11%
Ana Beatriz Barros 220 57.89%
Voters: 380. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #551  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:16 PM
Ryanski Ryanski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 338
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
how long ago did u watch daurgman

when bobaloca etc were running daurgman was an obvious bot

in the last 3ish months i haven't noticed the bot timing tells but its not like i sweat his every session

[/ QUOTE ]


It wasn`t long ago 1.5 months from today tops, most likely sooner, probably one of it`s last sessions on the site. Memory of the event is not the greatest though.

Probably watched pok z like twice for 5 minutes each, no weird timing tells there though.
Reply With Quote
  #552  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:17 PM
augie_ augie_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 5,720
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
I think when you get to the stage of allowing players to just follow the output of some poker AI and say it's ok so long as a human clicks the buttons, then that will be a sure fire way to kill online poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think dave's post is accurate. i think what he posted is the conspiracy theory the zoo agreed upon with those nl bots. but nobody knows the real truth.
Reply With Quote
  #553  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:18 PM
_dave_ _dave_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,628
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Glad you weighed in here Juk.

And this is exactly my point - under the current status-quo, these realtime advisory apps *are* allowed.

I do nnot believe this is a good thing - for reasons you state - but I believe it is key to these cases.

If there is a chance you can have your funds confiscated / account closed for using these - it must be made clear.

If it is fine to use these sort of programs - well, FTP better have much more significant evidence than "similar stats".

Where the line is drawn is currently very unclear, it must be addressed.

[ QUOTE ]

but was surprised at the level of apathy and the number of people who seem to think it's fine to use poker AI so long as "you click the buttons yourself".


[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting field. Particularly for games which may be prety much "solved" with current hardware (SNGs, HU Limit, Shortstack NLHE)

Are we to really consider that the primary problem with bots is their expert play? Why not therefore punish winners?

This is probably a subject for a different thread, lol [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Reply With Quote
  #554  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:19 PM
Leader Leader is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Excellence: Learn, Play, Win.
Posts: 7,682
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Re-timing: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...n=0&page=0

I'd hate to be accused of being a bot
Reply With Quote
  #555  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:22 PM
gehrig gehrig is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: CHICAGO
Posts: 3,950
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokergirl z
Pre-flop played %
65

grego777
Pre-flop played %
66

Daurgman
Pre-flop played %
68

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very unlikely that these stats in particular came from the same player/bot. If the player's true stat is 65, then after 62K hands they will be within that ~.4 of the 65 95% of the time. It's about a one in ten million event that this player would have a 66 stat. It's virtually impossible for the stat to be 68 over the samples discussed. Of course, this type of analysis assumes things that may not be true such as static game conditions/inability of the bot to adjust. It also assumes that MH or FT didn't round 65.4 to 65 and 65.6 to 66. Even so, I felt it necessary to point out that appearances here maybe deceiving and that it's possible to draw the opposite conclusion from the data then is obvious from just looking at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually i think ur right

i took it for granted just from the fact that the stats were posted that daurgman was the same as pokergirl/grego, but it's clear that pokergirl/grego/beatme play the same which is unlike any other regular.
Reply With Quote
  #556  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:28 PM
_dave_ _dave_ is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,628
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think when you get to the stage of allowing players to just follow the output of some poker AI and say it's ok so long as a human clicks the buttons, then that will be a sure fire way to kill online poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

i dont think dave's post is accurate. i think what he posted is the conspiracy theory the zoo agreed upon with those nl bots. but nobody knows the real truth.

[/ QUOTE ]


My post was more based on the realtime ICM softweare Juk linked to rather than the nlnut threads.

My point being, if one can legitimately write a strategy on paper and follow it - with this being allowable - then there is no difference in automating that strategy retrieval via software.

Take for example a full ring NL setminer "bot".

Written on paper (or memorized):

"PRE FLOP: play all pocket pairs & AK following 5/10 rule. If unopened, raise yourself.

POST FLOP: If TPTK or set, bet/bet/bet else check fold"

This bot will win $$$ (slowly). Given 27% rakeback, it will certainly profit.



Does it really matter if the human reads from paper / memory or an on screen display? I say NO.

Does it matter if the human need not be present / able to click buttons fast enough? HELL YES.

that is the real danger of botting, not their play but the fact that their volume of play is limited by a human's ability to follow instructions / not tilt.
Reply With Quote
  #557  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:28 PM
gehrig gehrig is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: CHICAGO
Posts: 3,950
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

some PT screen shots









the daurgman shots are from the last few months only
Reply With Quote
  #558  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:33 PM
PartyGirlUK PartyGirlUK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 10,995
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

Leader your point falls down when you consider the two people have likely been playing a different cross section of people.
Reply With Quote
  #559  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:35 PM
Leader Leader is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Excellence: Learn, Play, Win.
Posts: 7,682
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokergirl z
Pre-flop played %
65

grego777
Pre-flop played %
66

Daurgman
Pre-flop played %
68

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very unlikely that these stats in particular came from the same player/bot. If the player's true stat is 65, then after 62K hands they will be within that ~.4 of the 65 95% of the time. It's about a one in ten million event that this player would have a 66 stat. It's virtually impossible for the stat to be 68 over the samples discussed. Of course, this type of analysis assumes things that may not be true such as static game conditions/inability of the bot to adjust. It also assumes that MH or FT didn't round 65.4 to 65 and 65.6 to 66. Even so, I felt it necessary to point out that appearances here maybe deceiving and that it's possible to draw the opposite conclusion from the data then is obvious from just looking at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually i think ur right

i took it for granted just from the fact that the stats were posted that daurgman was the same as pokergirl/grego, but it's clear that pokergirl/grego/beatme play the same which is unlike any other regular.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's completely possible. You're judgment, as someone that has played with these players, is much more convincing to me then a bunch of almost of the same stats.
Reply With Quote
  #560  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:36 PM
gaming_mouse gaming_mouse is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: I call.
Posts: 5,584
Default Re: Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokergirl z
Pre-flop played %
65

grego777
Pre-flop played %
66

Daurgman
Pre-flop played %
68

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very unlikely that these stats in particular came from the same player/bot. If the player's true stat is 65, then after 62K hands they will be within that ~.4 of the 65 95% of the time. It's about a one in ten million event that this player would have a 66 stat. It's virtually impossible for the stat to be 68 over the samples discussed. Of course, this type of analysis assumes things that may not be true such as static game conditions/inability of the bot to adjust. It also assumes that MH or FT didn't round 65.4 to 65 and 65.6 to 66. Even so, I felt it necessary to point out that appearances here maybe deceiving and that it's possible to draw the opposite conclusion from the data then is obvious from just looking at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leader,

It seems as if this new batch of bots learned from their old mistakes and are taking precautions. It's well known now that the sites (and many concerned players too) are making stat comparisons as a way of identifying potential bots.

It would be very easy to make the bot configurable so that stats don't converge exactly, even though the underlying logic is essentially the same. Think, for example, of making small adjustments to stealing and defending ranges that will have very little impact on your bottom line.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.